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10-07 Spain rework

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by pineappledan, Oct 8, 2020.

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What do you think of this Spain rework?

Poll closed Oct 21, 2020.
  1. I like it. Spain should be changed to this

    28 vote(s)
    68.3%
  2. I prefer the current Spain and it should not be changed

    7 vote(s)
    17.1%
  3. The current Spain should be changed, but not like this

    6 vote(s)
    14.6%
  1. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  2. Napoleon Blownaparte

    Napoleon Blownaparte Chieftain

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    I'm sorry if what I said about the food was misconstrued. I want to reiterate on that. I believe that the current version of Spain gets a lot of (essentially) free food just for playing as you normally would and it is fun to skip the first few pop on newly settled cities and to grow your capital on city capture.

    Having said that, just because food on capture/settle is not thematic for Spain does not mean it should not exist in VP. Perhaps keep this for someone else and focus on the points you've mentioned (land acquisition and religious supremacy) rather than a potentially extraneous and antithematic yield will keep the UA strong and unique.

    Adding food to your yield on tile gain redesign does not entirely replicate the current situation and while I think it is a fairly safe yield it is not thematic and will only serve to muddy the waters or potentially unnecessarily weaken the UA while not preserving the same gameplay that I currently consider fun.

    I will vote no on the redesign with added food straw poll.
     
  3. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    I always thought that the old Spanish UA could just be renamed to be something pertaining to its colonization in South America and it would make sense. I don't care about :c5food: from the UA now, it made sense before because it synergized with the Mission, but now with the Hacienda...it doesn't play into Spain in general, so we might as well remove it and focus on :c5gold:/:c5faith:output. I think the yields on border growth could probably be pushed to 6:c5gold:/:c5faith:, removing the :c5food:.

    If we do keep the mission though, gaining :c5food: from every tile acquired would be beneficial for gameplay.
     
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  4. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    linked an updated DLL in the OP.

    Contains an update that makes the free inquisitor on conquest work. Inquisitors come loaded with whatever your capital's majority religion is. If your capital doesn't have a majority religion then no inquisitor spawns
    (edit: for clarification, if you have founded a religion in a holy city other than your capital, and then you capture a city before you converted your own capital, then uogh-tey itties-tey)

    Thank you @ASCII Guy for the new code!
    Unfortunately, I haven't been able to test it for myself because it is the second weekend of the month of October, and so I have been busy preparing my house for Real, Better Thanksgiving.

    The pro/anti food poll has swung decidedly anti-food. I have changed the yields on tile change back to 3:c5faith:7:c5gold:, which is super duper Christian numerology, so that's fun
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2020
  5. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    6:c5faith: per tile would mean 42:c5faith: as soon as you settle your capital, which means you are 1 more tile away from a turn 1 pantheon. This means you only have to wait for the 1:c5culture: in your capital to grow your borders, and you're set. Alternatively a :c5faith:faith or border growth ruin immediately pushes you over. This is why I have been reticent to push the :c5faith:faith generation on tiles past more than 3 or 4.
     
  6. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    Don't wanna be overly technical, but it's actually 2 tiles away. I'm just trying to match the old numbers of Spain, that had 40:c5faith: on founding cities, 6:c5faith: probably is too much but I think 3:c5faith: is cutting a little short, it would require 6 tiles acquired from every city after founding to be 39:c5faith: per city, I just want to make sure Spain actually gets to found pretty much always because if they don't they're screwed. Maybe 4 or 5 :c5faith: then?
     
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  7. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    That's the thing I am least confident about, what amount of yields in what mix is the most "fair" for this?

    faith gain is limited by early power, so it can only be so big before it becomes OP or makes the early game strategy too 1-dimensional. So the Gold needs to be at a level to make up the difference for power over the rest of the game.
    If all you do is rush a settler, you have pantheon immediately, so a Pyramid rush effectively doubles as a Stonehenge rush, because that's a combined 42:c5faith: right now. So how do you balance that potential faith gain's early speed against the big plateau in mid-game?
    Then, how much gold is enough gold to make the UA feel powerful enough to feel fair, after the Faith stops being the main concern?
     
    Kim Dong Un and Bromar1 like this.
  8. Drakle

    Drakle King

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    Food does not fit Spain at all. There is absolutely no justification for it, if anything Spain was depopulating a bit in the key era of the ruler, as rural farmers were replaced by the nobility with large scale pastoralism. They didn't densely settle any of their colonies, they just conquered already densely settled areas. The only reason people seem to want to keep it is because it is already there, for some reason.
     
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  9. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    I think the Hacienda should get some more base yields from later techs, like every other UI.
     
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  10. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    They do

    edit: added the tech yield changes to the OP
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
  11. Flamezone

    Flamezone Chieftain

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    Hey Dan,

    I really like the proposed rework! Thematics of the Civilizations are really important to me, and I feel like your rework solves significant religious issues while still remaining faithful to the original idea of the UA. The added relevancy of inquisitors is also a really cool addition.

    I am also a person that always plays with the 4UC mod, and I was just wondering (and I’m sorry if this has been answered already), if this rework became officially accepted, would the Mission building be moved to that mod instead, or will the Hacienda be replaced with something completely different? Thanks!

    Sincerely,

    Flamezone
     
  12. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    This Spain rework is, of course, not currently compatible with 4UC mod, since they both give the Hacienda.

    If this gets taken up, I am actually working on a new 4UC addition, because I wouldn't plan on simply swapping the mission back to 4UC. A Mission has many similarities to a Hacienda; they're in many ways the same institution, just under different management. Furthermore, I don't like how the Mission pushes Spain's power spike so early with a very powerful, but also extremely boring building, that doesn't emphasize any unique mechanics.

    So, in light of that, I am working on a Spanish Bullfighting Ring with a unique WLTKD mechanic.
     
  13. gwennog

    gwennog Prince

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    I'm testing this version of spain, I really like the spirit and the gameplay.
    However, in my opinion, something is missing to keep the idea of Catholic Spain's proselitism on other continents. The cities created by the conquistadors should have the religion of the civilization.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
  14. InkAxis

    InkAxis Prince

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    Perhaps cities started with a conquistador could start with a free missionary? It makes sense thematically and fits the UA. But perhaps conquistadors would have to be nerfed to balance it. But this isn't really a necessary change like the others.
     
  15. VampireSeraphin

    VampireSeraphin Chieftain

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    Is this going to include citadels, conquests, goody hut land, the works? I just want to know for clarity if there are any edge case land gains it won't apply to.

    Re: Inquisitors

    I'm just not a fan of messing with them. It doesn't feel different enough to be interesting. As an alternate idea, since the theme is the Reconquista, is it even possible to code things so Spanish military units generate religious pressure? So a city under Spanish siege flips to your religion fairly quickly?
     
  16. Napoleon Blownaparte

    Napoleon Blownaparte Chieftain

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    I've played a bit with the rework now and I think that you're spot on with the amount of yields for your first two cities to avoid encroaching on India and Carthage. It's not as good as a turn 1 pantheon and it's far from reaching the level of city connection, gold, and tile yields that Carthage gets. I played these games on epic speed, standard size, difficulty 6, with 12 civs and 24 cs, the new modified communitu79 map with standard resource allocation and density and plot yield changes enabled. I used 4UC for the first one and then proceeded to disable it for the following two.

    The changes you've made wrt the inquisitors and how religion functions, as a whole, for Spain are a great improvement. It preserves the old one nation one church style of Spain while removing the quite broken and untenable aspects, good job. I find it really odd there isn't some sort of religious flavor tied to the settling of new cities though, especially with conquistadors being as strong as they are. Perhaps a substantial boost to yields gained by tile acquisition on whatever the game deems another continent would fit, if the limits of modding allow.

    Now for my dissent! I have to say that 10g/4f (on epic) per tile until medieval is a pittance. The pseudo tribute policy yields get absolutely trumped by the real thing in authority and I felt very weak playing as progress. It (the faith in particular) helps you get to a pantheon and then after that I hardly notice it. I'm FPTP to a prophet if I take expanse, but who isn't? If I've got Kailash or similar I can found with a low faith pantheon, but again, who can't? On epic speed I will have received approximately 250 faith with five cities before I enter medieval and see a yield increase. The gold is appreciated and you can always find a use for it but we're talking 600~ spread over two eras! This equates to a hurried monument in every new city or a handful of basic units. It's hard to compare different yields and I know the early game is going to have to be significantly slower without a couple of extra population but this new Spain feels so much slower. The yields, as they stand, are absolutely fine for the first city, maybe even the second, but after that they become so small as to hardly be noticed. It's the equivalent of a unit kill with one order in your empire and 33% of half of the tribute policy and it's tied to a trigger that happens significantly less often.

    Both games that I went authority I can say would have been remarkably similar with almost any other non religious or non warlike civ and this feels like a mistake. Nothing fundamentally changes from my build other than I get what equates to a gold ruin every twenty turns or so, it's nice but nothing to write home about. One of the coolest things about the old Spain, in my opinion, was settling (even razing and then settling) as soon as I was able to and enjoying the benefits that the combination of tribute, imperium, and my UA would give me: A sprawling empire that could work the two to four good tiles in the first two rings nearly immediately and would power through the starting buildings even without an investment. Now I keep the science and culture, same as before, lose out on gold because I'm hurrying everything I can and my cities still struggle to grow.

    I think maybe exploring an overall stronger but less immediately impactful UA (so as to not disrupt the early game too much) would be better. Maybe significantly improving the tile acquisition yields but tying them to a building would work. It would need to be drastic though, if it keeps the tile acquisition mechanic as a trigger. Drastic as in 20f/20g on standard, era 0, drastic. I don't know.

    I know you consider the mission kind of lame but it is a strong building. I think breaking up the mission/conquistador combo at chivalry is a good move and I hope the bullfighting thing you've got planned is plenty strong to start off with! Plenty of time to iterate on it in the future.

    I really think the religion changes alone are of merit and I don't want to be discouraging because I like the work you've done so far and I don't play on deity so please take my posts with a grain or two of salt.

    edit 2: What about a unique promotion, tied to the UA, that gives yields at the current values, per attack melee or otherwise on an enemy city (similar to the raider promotion that Askia gets)? I think with that you could keep the tile acquisition and religious bonuses the same and still have a very strong gold and faith engine!

    edit 3: Perhaps a placeholder building or something that is created on settle/capture that will replicate the tile acquisition bonus in every city would be better. This would turn the bonus into something similar to orders or the old Denmark runestone pillaging mechanic. I believe both of those mechanics are very strong so maybe it would work similarly with new Spain.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
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  17. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    Yeah, with current VP Spain essentially braking the religious game on top of their other bonuses, they are a beast of a civ. I've liked the rework since it was posted a while ago in the civ tweak modmod, but my worry was always concerning how impactful the new tile acquisition yields would be comparative to how strong Isabella usually feels to people. For as much as this is a better idea, it's probably going to end up feeling as if she was nerfed pretty hard, and I don't know how you'd tweak the numbers to keep consistency, balance and impact.
     
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  18. InkAxis

    InkAxis Prince

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    I'm still in the fairly early game, but I also feel like it isn't impactful enough past the first several turns. The authority policy outshone it, and when my borders grew I was thinking, "yay, production" and the faith/gold as much less. I think it should scale stronger with era, or perhaps it could scale with the number of cities? Because you are most often going to get your third/fourth city before the end of the ancient era, so either it needs a really strong era scaler or some other scaler.
     
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  19. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    All tiles. No exceptions. :thumbsup:
    As @Kim Dong Un mentioned, part of my stated goal for this rework is to nerf Spain. Their current kit fully shuts down enemy religions at zero cost and, frankly, it gives absurd amounts of yields on conquest. People have been saying for 2 years now that Spain is easily top 3, and She only gets stronger with each successive patch that increases the cost of buildings settlers/pioneers and using inquisitors.

    I have no way to increase the scaling of the yields on tile gain other than per era, nor do I have much interest in doing so. The code is functional as is, and no other base VP civ uses unique, non-era scaling. If the yields fail to be impactful into mid-game, however every method of tile acquisition is unlinked from the others, so the base yields from each tile gain method can be tiered. Here are the 5 unique tile gain methods:
    • Tiles from Settle
    • Tiles from border growth
    • Tiles from purchase
    • Tiles from Conquest
    • Tiles from Ruins and Citadels (These two share the same entry)
    It also sounds to me like yields from settle could stand to go up juuust a hair, so how about:
    • 4:c5faith:8:c5gold: for each tile claimed via settling/purchase/border growth
    • 10:c5faith:20:c5gold: for each tile claimed via Conquest/Ruins/Citadels
    ie. 2.5x yields for aggressive border spread. This is somewhat consistent with the scaling on the current Spain, which gives 2.8x yields for conquest vs settle
    Here is what I have for the Bullring right now:
    Spoiler Bullring :

    4UC - UB - Bullring
    (replaces Zoo)
    available at Navigation (1 tech earlier)
    Does not require a Circus in the City
    600 :c5production: Production Cost
    (-300 from Industrial, equivalent buildings at same tech)

    +4:c5faith:, 4:tourism:, 4:c5culture: (up from 2:c5culture:)
    +2 :c5culture: 2:tourism: to Pastures, Forests, and Jungles (up from 2:tourism:1:c5culture: on forest/jungle)
    +50% 'WLTKD' Length, and 50:c5faith:Faith and :c5culture: Culture when a 'WLTKD' starts, scaling with Era.
    -1 :c5unhappy:Unhappiness from Boredom
    1000:tourism: Tourism when completed
    Whenever a :trade:International Trade Route is completed, Receive a :tourism: Tourism boost with the target civilization
    So it's got a unique WLTKD bonus and, while it doesn't have a huge boost to tourism relative to the zoo, does give Spain a small bonus towards a domination lead pivoting into an earlier CV.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
  20. Napoleon Blownaparte

    Napoleon Blownaparte Chieftain

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    I'm not objecting to the strength of Spain or to your changes to what I referred to as the 'broken and untenable aspects' of the current Spanish religious game. I'm well aware that Spain is very strong and if all she had was the current ability to ignore other religions, the strength of the mission/conquistador, and kept naval zealotry Isabella would probably be alright, if a little boring.

    If you've no plans to add multiplicative scaling or even a one time bonus similar to the authority finisher I can only advocate for a higher base yield from tile acquisition. As it is, without a way to trigger the ability more consistently I don't see what else you could do to make it feel more powerful. Whatever you decide on the fair amount for settling is I'd ask for double that on border growth to start with. Probably want to stay away from buffing ruins though as a border ruin is already quite nice. If you're worried about the shower of yields from city capture I don't know what to say really. It's a big event, it doesn't happen super often over the course of the game and as such should feel impactful. More so in Spain's case with a redesigned UA focused almost entirely on land acquisition and religious supremacy, no?

    Navigation is a long while to wait for what amounts to a (admittedly nice, with the addition of pastures) yield increase over the base building. This would put it squarely in the realm of skola and coffee house for me, probably fine and probably balanced. It'll make chopping for the perfect hacienda and village setup significantly more painful. I don't mind that though, it's part of the fun with for a civ with a good UI. The WLTKD length increase is a nice bonus you don't see too often so that's cool. I like that there's a production discount.

    If the general consensus is that naval zealotry, inquisitor on capture, and conquistador/hacienda are plenty strong enough that the UA is just a small bonus you don't super notice after the first couple cities, that's fine. I'll accept that and will just need to get over it. I would like to see a version that would allow me the use of 4UC as well as the reworked UA to get a feel of what it would be like with everything all at once, even if it still has the mission instead of the bullfighting ring.
     

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