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10-07 Spain rework

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by pineappledan, Oct 8, 2020.

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What do you think of this Spain rework?

Poll closed Oct 21, 2020.
  1. I like it. Spain should be changed to this

    28 vote(s)
    68.3%
  2. I prefer the current Spain and it should not be changed

    7 vote(s)
    17.1%
  3. The current Spain should be changed, but not like this

    6 vote(s)
    14.6%
  1. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Why don't you scale the bonus on border expansion by the number of tiles the city is already controlling? That way you encourage players to increase the territory each city controls.
     
    SuperNoobCamper likes this.
  2. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I don't want to pump yields on border growth or purchase high enough to compete with Russia (20:c5science:) or America (20:c5production:), who only have that 1 yield source. In the current version, Spain gets a combined 10 yields, from 5 yield sources and I have already suggested bumping that to 12, and making conquest higher. However, I can tell you with some confidence that if the yields are large enough to be 'noticeable' in the way that you want, they Will be OP. The yields as they exist now are a constant trickle that, while not flashy, do amount to a sizeable advantage.

    That said, mouthfeel and timing are important to make the civ fun, so increasing the yields on conquest to feel rewarding isn't going to make them too overwhelming, since as you say it is a fairly infrequent occurrence.
    Well that's a bit dispiriting. It is completely unique; something I put together through lua. The only similar bonus is found on Versailles in the Enlightenment Era mod for VP. There is nothing like the yields on WLTKD start in the game currently, but there are buildings that give % modifiers during WLTKDs.

    To have the feedback be "huh, yeah I guess you don't see that too much" means that even if it is unique, it doesn't feel unique, so maybe I need to keep looking. Or maybe it’s such a natural fit for a bonus that it feels like it should have been in the game ages ago? Maybe I’m interpreting that response wrong.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2020
  3. Drakle

    Drakle King

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    As a possible alternate idea, what if we lower the lump sum faith and gold, but add a per turn yield of both based on tiles owned by the city. Not worked tiles just owned tiles in total.

    Like 1 faith and 1 gold per say 8 tiles owned by the city. Scaling with era, but not a particularly high scaler. So the per turn faith and gold don't kick in immediately but take a few tile expansions in a city before they kick in. But it smooths out the curve of yields, and boosts the usefulness of the Hacienda's border tile expansion.

    As for the Bullring, well I'd prefer it at an earlier building.
     
  4. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I need to nip this in the bud.

    What I have done with this rework is possible with the code as is, with only minor tweaks to expand the functionality of some existing code (thanks @ASCII Guy). I don't want to poopoo ideas outright, but people advocating to make the scaling work via some other method than era scaling, or recommending altogether different, non-existent mechanics for the UA, is not productive. I've described an avenue to tune the yields for balance. Please limit discussion to the code as it exists, and refrain from red herrings. 10 people giving 20 solutions is pointless.

    Edit: also, Let's move further discussion of the Bullring to the 4UC thread.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2020
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  5. randomnub

    randomnub Prince

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    I played a number of Spain starts up to Renaissance to get the feeling of the new UA/UI and I still like the rework, but the yields feel quite underwhelming. They're of great help in getting a pantheon but the amount of faith you gain from conquering or settling new cities in the first eras feels like a pitance.

    This sounds better on paper, even if 5/10 for the pacific tile aquisition would be so much more elegant for an OCD like myself.

    I'd like for the old UA to make a comeback in the part of newly aquired cities immediately following your own religion, instead of getting free inquisitors that simply don't work on cities without a majority religion and feel awkard in the pre-founding period. That part of the current UA feels elegant and is smoothly implemented compared to the rework one, also I like for my conquistador-founded cities to be a beachhead for heaten conversion. I know I can follow with missionaries but the AI isn't great at that (pretty sure they never bring missionaries along troops hence they lose turns), also when conquering+razing gaining a free inquisitor means little, except that I can move that inquisitor to another city/continent and that is also micro intensive/player friendly.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2020
    gwennog likes this.
  6. gwennog

    gwennog Prince

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    I think the same, maybe something like every city built by a conquistador gets a free missionary (as proposed InkAxis) and every city conquered, a free inquisitor.
     
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  7. Napoleon Blownaparte

    Napoleon Blownaparte Chieftain

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    I don't mean to be dispiriting. I did not realize that WTLKD length was unique. I never thought about it enough for that to be apparent, that's embarrassing and I apologize. I've got a couple of thoughts about what I consider to be a cool and interactive UB and why this one felt kind of underwhelming at first glance but I'll save those for the 4UC thread as indicated.

    I understand where you're coming from with yield numbers and I'll continue to play and provide feedback. The biggest problem I have with it is truly as you mentioned that regardless of the strength of the UA overall the individual occurrences feel weak. Feelings aren't objective and while they are important I don't want to advocate for a broken mechanic.

    Edit: I have no idea how to form coherent thoughts and I blame covid19.
     
  8. InkAxis

    InkAxis Prince

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    Yes this true, we should focus on the current version. Is it possible to increase the scaling? Like how much does it increase per era? Otherwise the idea for increased yields only on citadels/ruins/conquest sounds good.
     
  9. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    It’s standard era scaling: 1/1/2/3/4/5/6/7x from ancient/classical/etc.

    I will push a version with 10:c5faith:/20:c5gold: on conquest and 5:c5faith:/10:c5gold: on everything else late tonight. Still at work.

    edit: updated as of 7:00 MST
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2020
  10. danymatrix

    danymatrix Chieftain

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    hi. 4UC Compatibility ?
     
  11. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  12. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  13. InkAxis

    InkAxis Prince

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    @pineappledan it seems that a new version is coming out soon, what are the plans for new Spain?
    It seems that the poll is decisively in favor of the reworked Spain.
     
  14. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  15. Alpharius

    Alpharius Chieftain

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    @pineappledan why does the Hacienda look like this? (screenshot isn't working, pic taken from my phone so it's a bit dark)
    the mods I'm using are only VP and 4UC. I've tried deleting the cache and moduserdata folders and reinstalling VP but it still looks like this. Is it incompatible with UC? I have the latest version of both mods.
     

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  16. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  17. Alpharius

    Alpharius Chieftain

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    I've reinstalled VP and put in the 1-9 beta.
    Hacienda looks fine now on strategic view but in normal it's still the same, with red/white checkered patterns on it.
     

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