10% research - is it the only way?

AnthonyIII

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Jun 5, 2011
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Hey. One question: At higher difficulties like emperor or deity - why does having 10% research seem so populaer? In articles in the War Academy and in the training games there's a almost none that have research at 100% the first 10-20 turns. I generally keep my research as high as possible the whole game on monarch and emperor. What is the downside to that and will I have a easier victory and become a better player with research at 10%? I understand this is for conquest/domination victories, which are what I'm going for atm.

(I was gonna post it in the newbie section but I realized that maybe this is not a "quick question/quick answer" type of question, if it is feel free to move my question.)

Cheers,
A
 
Tech cost scales with difficulty, so if you try to research at full speed at the start of a high level game, you don't get much improvement in your research time. Research Writing in 40 turns, and have about 15g in the bank at the end, or research Writing in 50 turns, and have 300g in the bank...

That said, for my money, playing an Alphabet civ and researching Writing first up is the only situation in which I would start with the min run strat. If I'm not trying that gambit, I want to go Pots > Alphabet > Writing > .. > Republic, and I do it at 100%.
 
I have found little use for gold in the early AA. It seems any extra gold, resource, and the rare times I have tech over the AI, the AI demand it from me. I usually make as many early contacts as possible and research behind the AI to cheapen cost, and then through an occasional trade plus a human-built empire I usually catch up in tech in the late AA or early MA.

So PB, are you able to trade Writing to good effect at turn 50 or so? Does it help catch you up early, or does it just get you to Republic faster?

Also, I usually grab Warrior Code and/or Bronze Working and sometimes Iron or Wheel before going towards Republic. Am I wasting my time? Come to think of it I'm rarely ready to attack before reaching Republic; perhaps I'm wasting my time on the early military unit techs?

Sorry if I'm diverting thread. I am also curious to see the min research scenarios.
 
If I understand you correctly PaperBeetle, you're saying that the number of turns needed to reserach for exampel pottery in emperor is different then in regent? Even when the sliders are 100% at both games? Just to make it absolutely clear... :)

From what I've experienced so far in emperor(my third game), the AI is much more agressive and demanding. So I've researched BW and IW to get my military up fast, because when I've tried to to the 10% research, the AI comes demanding all my gold. If I refuse, they go to war and kill me because I don't have the techs to build any other units than warriors and spears. I can however see the point of having money in the bank for doing upgrades later, it's just that theese money is very tempting to the AI and they might go to war before I'm ready... Is something in between even worse? You fall between two chairs? I think I've played a little like you so far in emperor, Puppeteer. :) Just a final question, does your research percentage affect your ability to expand? Other than you have to lower it from 100% when you build granary etc... Sorry if it's a lot of questions.

EDIT: Also, if you're playing a civ with an early UU, you want to start using it asap no? Let's say if I'm playing the romans/persians/iroquois, then I research at 100% the techs that give me my UU.
 
I would suggest either going minimum research (maybe even lone scientist in some situations) or cranking science up as high as you can afford. When you're running in the middle, you're not bringing in all that much gold, and you're not researching very quickly. It's the worst of both worlds.

Research percentage, in and of itself, does not affect one's ability to expand. Building settlers and escorts is a matter of food and shields. Research is a matter of commerce. A granary, like any other building, costs upkeep. That's what cuts into your research budget.
 
If I understand you correctly PaperBeetle, you're saying that the number of turns needed to reserach for exampel pottery in emperor is different then in regent? Even when the sliders are 100% at both games? Just to make it absolutely clear... :)

Yes, that is exactly what he is saying. Try starting a game at Sid, and see if you can research anything at a reasonable rate. Tech costs soar, and 10% is a much better deal if it will take 50 turn to research it anyway. I use a general rule, if 100% research can't reduce it to at least 1/2 of the max time, it's not worth going full bore. (unless you have some odd circumstances where you must have that tech slightly sooner, but even then you can go 10% for a while then turn it up at the end)
 
From what I've experienced so far in emperor(my third game), the AI is much more agressive and demanding. So I've researched BW and IW to get my military up fast, because when I've tried to to the 10% research, the AI comes demanding all my gold. If I refuse, they go to war and kill me because I don't have the techs to build any other units than warriors and spears. I can however see the point of having money in the bank for doing upgrades later, it's just that theese money is very tempting to the AI and they might go to war before I'm ready... Is something in between even worse? You fall between two chairs? I think I've played a little like you so far in emperor, Puppeteer. :) Just a final question, does your research percentage affect your ability to expand? Other than you have to lower it from 100% when you build granary etc... Sorry if it's a lot of questions.

I find saved gold in the ancient age Emperor difficulty nearly useless. It doesn't help or hinder expansion. Gold is only good for establishing embassies. I can't really get enough saved up to help trade for tech, and if I need to establish a military alliance I find GPT more versatile.

I find that even though Emperor is tougher, there is still a grace period of peace usually. It seems not even the barbs bother you inside your borders before 3000 BC, and sometimes they let you be until 2500 BC or so. As long as you haven't settled a resource right by an AI's borders they seem to prefer to settle the unclaimed land before turning on you. Of course I give in to all demands of tribute at this stage. I don't make a lot of military early. The focus is settlers, workers, scouting units (warriors/scouts/curraghs) and enough warriors to not leave undefended towns as the AI loves going after undefended towns.

I also control expenses by choosing select high-production towns for barracks and look for good food towns for a granary or two. And I usually expand quickly enough that I'm not paying for unit support until Republic.

I improve income by growing the capitol as soon as the other cities can sustain settler production for expansion. If I'm lucky I can grow another core city early, too. (Point: big low-corruption cities working roaded or water tiles bring in lots of commerce.) And of course getting the tiles improved with roads.

I also micromanage city workers. 11-13 spt in the capitol is 1-3 wasted shields per turn, for example. I can increase commerce by working better gold tiles and lowering production to 10spt and finish most builds in the same number of turns.

EDIT: Also, if you're playing a civ with an early UU, you want to start using it asap no? Let's say if I'm playing the romans/persians/iroquois, then I research at 100% the techs that give me my UU.

My UU doesn't generally drive the war timing decision or research path for me. In Emperor I'm rarely ready to tackle the AI until late AA / early MA, and I'm often expanding and/or developing the core at least through then. Also, an early despotic golden age is often a waste of a GA. The empire has too few workers working too few improved tiles, and the despotism penalty eats up most of the benefit for improved worked tiles.

For some of the really early UUs I may skip building them altogether, and then later when I want to trigger a GA have a UU attack a redlined enemy to kick off the GA. Of course you don't always have that choice. If an enemy attacks your Hoplite or Legion...oh well.
 
I use a general rule, if 100% research can't reduce it to at least 1/2 of the max time, it's not worth going full bore.

With the caveat that you need to take into account future income growth. OK, if I still have one worker and my towns are pushing out settlers as they reach size 3, research won't improve. But if a core town or two is just going off settler production and has some improved tiles ready, research will improve radically before the tech completes.

Also, your tech cost may decrease if you meet another civ who knows or is researching the tech, or if a civ you know finishes the tech while you're still researching it.
 
With the caveat that you need to take into account future income growth. OK, if I still have one worker and my towns are pushing out settlers as they reach size 3, research won't improve. But if a core town or two is just going off settler production and has some improved tiles ready, research will improve radically before the tech completes.

Also, your tech cost may decrease if you meet another civ who knows or is researching the tech, or if a civ you know finishes the tech while you're still researching it.

Well yes, this mostly only has relevance in the early game when income is minimal and you are mostly building settlers and workers. Even then, I sometime have exceptions like if I am going for writing hoping for the slingshot I might go full bore even if i only reduce by 30% or so the time.
 
Hey. One question: At higher difficulties like emperor or deity - why does having 10% research seem so populaer? In articles in the War Academy and in the training games there's a almost none that have research at 100% the first 10-20 turns. I generally keep my research as high as possible the whole game on monarch and emperor. What is the downside to that and will I have a easier victory and become a better player with research at 10%? I understand this is for conquest/domination victories, which are what I'm going for atm.

There is a fornula for reseach cost. It mainly boils down to two big factors. 1) level (above Regent) 2) map size. The rest are not important.

The amount to put into a tech at the very beginning is as all things dependant. In the main there is not a lot of value to be gained by putting more than 20% at first. You cannot drop to 10% as that will be zero research at the start, in most cases.

Exception exist and in fact you can make a gain at times going 100, presuming you are going to get more towns down and improve the land with roads.

The value of going 20% till you get more income is that you do not have to run a defict and possibly soon have to lower the research due to going broke. You pile up some gold that will let you run a defict for a time, later.

This works well on Emporer, less well above that level. This is because the AI is likely to demand some of that gold up piled up to pay for the defict or upgrades.
 
I just wrote a very long answer, asking questions to all of you... then my internet connection fell out and the text disappeared... Oh, well, I'll try again.

Aabraxan: That's what I thought. I'll play around with the slider and see what I can learn from it, considering numbers of turn to research at various levels.

Creamcheese: While I understand that by having research at 10% can pay for a lot of unit upkeep to whack some neighbours and get their techs - isn't this becoming a huge problem later on in the game? I mean if you're so far behind in tech that the AI will get to knights or cavalry long before you and crush you? I've tried to buy techs but the AI just won't sell. Do you keep up by buying? The AI loves to attack backwards civs I have painfully experienced. Anyway, some good advise from you, I guess I haven¨t realized it's not much difference in turns between the slider's percentage.

Puppeteer, I also find saved up gold in the AA nearly useless. It'll just get demanded. But you say you just build enough military to defend your cities? I generally play on small/standard pangea or continents and if I don't build a decent military force early on, I almost always get attacked. And it's always nasty... That's why if I go for con/dom VC I always research the techs needed to get my early UU and take out my two closest rivals before 900BC. That way I'll have lots of land and can foucus on settlers, culture and more military. I don't mind so much that it triggers a GA because if I don't take theese two out, I'll have problems later on. Especially if they got horses and I don't. But that's what so great about civ, there's many ways to victory! :) I'll try swapping the citizens tiles, I've never done that just the scientist/taxman/entertainer swap.

vmxa, maybe that's why I've able to keep science at almost 100% most of the time? My two first emperor games were on tiny pangea. Tech costs rise with larger maps? Good tips as always.
 
But you say you just build enough military to defend your cities? I generally play on small/standard pangea or continents and if I don't build a decent military force early on, I almost always get attacked. And it's always nasty... That's why if I go for con/dom VC I always research the techs needed to get my early UU and take out my two closest rivals before 900BC. That way I'll have lots of land and can foucus on settlers, culture and more military.

How many cities do you have around 1000 BC when fighting before 900 BC? I'm opening up a few of my games around 1000 BC: 10 cities / pop 29, 6 cities / pop 15 (poor food, close neighbors), 12 cities / pop 20, 8 cities / pop 24, 10 cities / pop 24, 6 cities / pop 24 (with 3 catapults...don't remember what I was doing in that game...must have been attacked early). I try to expand as fast as I can during the land grab phase and then start developing/growing from the core outward.

Actually I don't have enough military to defend cities while I'm expanding, just to garrison them. If the AI attacked the warriors wouldn't hold up.

But as I'm expanding I try to find the right time to get the capitol and/or another shield-capable core city or two off of settler/worker production and on to barracks and real military. "The right time" has to do with how much more land I can settle and how much settler production I have. Usually I have 3-4 barracks cities pushing out spears and some offense around 1000 BC but am still expanding with the other cities.

I also have the road network established for defense and tiles improved for the growing population to work, so I can usually make military at a decent pace once the barracks are built.

I don't mind so much that it triggers a GA because if I don't take theese two out, I'll have problems later on. Especially if they got horses and I don't.

I usually expand quickly enough to get either iron or a horse, but even if I don't I manage to produce military quickly enough to overpower a single AI civ. I guess my goal is to grow to outproduce my enemies and then crush them.

I'll try swapping the citizens tiles, I've never done that just the scientist/taxman/entertainer swap.

The Emperor AI only has to collect 80% the shields and food we do to build and grow. But it is stupid when it comes to allocating its resources and has a lot of food & production overrun. 4 or 5 spt is low-waste for anything over 10s. 6spt wastes a fair number of shields except on 30s or 60s builds, so a town making 6spt is a good candidate for micromanaging up or down. 7spt is good for 20s builds but wasteful for 30s builds. 8spt is ok for 30s or 70s builds, great for 40s/80s, wasteful for others. 9spt is wasteful for just about everything, MM that city! 4, 5, 7 and 10 spt are often where I want to be in the AA. 14 spt is good for 3-turn 40s units if you can manage it early.

But of course don't alter production for nothing. There should be an advantage achieved. I'll sacrifice growth speed or even take a few turns of food shortage to reach 10spt for military builds. But usually I'm finding more growth or more commerce when reducing an inefficient number of shields to a more efficient number.

Of course if one is really anal or really needs all the help he can get to survive you can MM several times over the course of the build. That's not fun for me, so I usually avoid that except for settler pumps that don't work right without MM, and sometimes in the very early game I'll sometimes MM per-turn to maximize a food bonus by sharing it between towns. But usually I aim for an efficient number of shields.

Edit: If you're a beginning micromanager you may not have noticed that the F1 screen can be sorted by shield, food, commerce and other production. When I MM I usually sort F1 for shields and look for the inefficient numbers. I sort by commerce a lot, too. Sometimes it's surprising which cities produce the most commerce.
 
Anthony III, sorry if this is old news to you, but the game has a minimum and amximum number of turns to research a tech. If you run 100% at a zillion GPT you still can't get learn a new technology (correct me if I'm worng) sooner than 4 turns, and if you put any gold to research (eg 10% at 1 gold per turn) you will still learn even a very expensive tech in no more than 50 turns, presumably saving lots of money. At higher levels if you can meet AI civs that haven't met yet, you can act as tech broker buying from 1 and selling to the others to theoretically keep up, make the AI gracious as you're trading buddies and even end up with some gold in profit. To reiterate, the high price of techs at the higher levels makes many shy away from self research. Again, sorry if this is too basic.
 
Anthony you may want to get in the habit of making your long post in notepad and copy paste. Otherwise at least when you finish typing copy it then submit. If it fails you have it in the clipboard and can recover it.

I use the latter for short post and the former for complex post as it is much safer. With the copy then submit, you still face the stuff like backspacing the browser. I have made all the possible screw ups in posting.
 
I have found little use for gold in the early AA. It seems any extra gold, resource, and the rare times I have tech over the AI, the AI demand it from me.

If the AI is on a different landmass, you can simply ignore their demand, and if they declare, you get war happiness, which increases your economy because you can lower the lux slider by 10%...
Also make embassies and sign RoPs asap, that will make the AIs polite towards you, and they won't attack you (if you have a couple of units...)

The extra gold is very useful. Just check out the start save in the following post: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8092622#post8092622
It's a Deity, archipelago. If you want to practice a bit, play it up to e.g. 1000BC twice: once using 10% and once 100% research for the first tech, and then compare. You will find that with 10% you will be much further advanced than with 100%!!! :D

I tried it with the 10% strategy, and by 1000BC I had finished the ancient age and already got Monotheism and Engineering... (compare the attached 1000BC save in post #30.) With the 100% strategy I would probably have finished only a handful of AA techs, because I would never have gotten any trades and would have had to research all techs on my own...
The trick is to use the extra gold earned in the first 50 turns for "softening" the tech deals, which the AI would not make otherwise. (On higher difficulty levels, the AI demands more than the tech is actually worth, so you can't just "swap tech for tech".) The extra gold is necessary to get the trade loop started. So for Writing and your gold, you buy a tech that only 1-2 AIs know. Then you go to the next civ and sell Writing plus that tech you just bought and get another tech. The next civ may give you 100g for one of those techs, and then you can again trade 100g + a tech for another tech. Sooner or later, you'll have all known techs and can then start researching an unknown tech at let's say 90%. If you finish it, before many of the AIs have it, you can again get some favorable trades. Rinse and repeat.
Can't remember all the details, but I think I researched only like 3 techs myself and got all the others by trading and buying. Of course you need lot's of early contacts, so the best "research accelerator" is not a library, it's a curragh... ;) Send out 4 of them before the barb galleys start infesting the seas, and you'll finish the AA in no time.
 
Creamcheese: While I understand that by having research at 10% can pay for a lot of unit upkeep to whack some neighbours and get their techs - isn't this becoming a huge problem later on in the game? I mean if you're so far behind in tech that the AI will get to knights or cavalry long before you and crush you? I've tried to buy techs but the AI just won't sell. Do you keep up by buying? The AI loves to attack backwards civs I have painfully experienced. Anyway, some good advise from you, I guess I haven¨t realized it's not much difference in turns between the slider's percentage.

Basically if the choice in the early game is 10% for 50 turns and a pile of gold, or 100% for 40 turns and none to negative gold, I'd go for the 10%. If you can get it in, say, 20 turns, go for it. But 50 is the max, and even 10% will reduce the cost to buy.

Later in the game you should be on top of your tech situation either by A.) trading for techs with your new money, or techs and money, B.) by "pointy-stick research" (going to war and then extorting techs for peace after you take their cities.), or C.) by having your libraries and universities up and running.

If you want to do self research, you should easily be reducing the time to less than 25 turns, and thus my rule of thumb does not apply any longer. On emperor in the mid to late game you will probably do some of your own research unless you are going for a military victory. If you can't get it down to close to 4-8 turns research you need to think about acquiring more science or no researching at all, b/c the AI will beat you there anyway.

Keep in mind that some of the greatest games out there ran 0% science or lone scientist for most of, or for the entire game. On the highest levels, researching yourself is so costly that buying, trading, stealing, and extorting are the only effective methods.
 
Puppeteer: Around 1000BC I normally have around 4-6 cities. I might delay my first war if I see some very important resources, of two of them very near, so that I can take both. That way it's a big chance my neighbour won't get iron for exampel and that's a huge bonus. This happened in my last game. I was in the MA and the Zulus only had archers and the Impi. So I don't always go to war very early, but generally I do. That's because I get the land from the early land grab as you do, but also I get all the land of my neighbour. That puts me in front early - and like you I make sure to have iron and perhaps horses too in my borders early- before first war. I must point out this is games with 3-5 opponents. As far as population is concerned it tends to change from game to game, starting location etc... Also, I have a suspicion that I'm not that great to locate good city sites. I mostly go for rivers, coasts or a resource/luxury site. I'm not good at finding out what site is good for production and what site is good for food, other than that I know flood plains are good for food. Got some quick tips?

Second half of your post was very helpful and I learned a lot, will be using F1 for sure! :goodjob:

splunge the 2nd: No worries, mate. I knew that. It's just that because of my heavy warring, the AI is reluctant to trade techs with me, if they're not on another continent. So I mostly just research myself around 80/90% most of the time.

vmxa, doing it vmxa-style now! :goodjob:

Lanzelot, I've also noticed this and if they invade rather early, they only come with a galley or two with some archers and spears, the AI sea-invasions are really poor... Regarding RoP, doesn't the AI love to backstab you? They've done that in my games, but it's easy to see when trouble is up... Suddenly they have 8-9 swordsmen next to my city, you know they don't come to chat! :D
I'll try the save, thanks. And woha, finishing AA bu 1000BC is amazing, I generally enter the MA between 300BC-400AD as I'm aiming for in all my games after a tip from shl7070 in another thread. Did play peacefully? Where the other AIs in the MA as well? How many AIs were in that game? I must try this. Knights before AD!!

Creamcheese, thanks for the very enlightening answers, I may have to rethink my research style after this. I guess the gold is good to have as long as it's not demanded. However, how can one keep up in tech by going 10% if for exampel the last two opponents won't trade with you? Then you'll be screwed for sure? Or is that when you try to take them both out? (Or maybe the difference theese 10 extra turns makes is not that big of a deal? Yes, I know I should load up a game and test, I will do it.) My next game will be 10%. I guess a mixture of trading and warring is good, no?
 
Puppeteer: Around 1000BC I normally have around 4-6 cities.

I'm curious if better players than me have other answers, but my goal is to get to 2*OCN (target of about 20 cities on a standard map) cities developed and productive asap. Of course that takes time, and the central cities get productive first and start up the war machine as the outer cities develop. (I don't stop at 20 cities, I just don't start building courthouses or any infrastructure in them aside from tactical culture or barracks if appropriate, and those are generally rushed builds, anyway.)

Stunting growth may get the first war started earlier and avoid pike defenders, but I'm not convinced that's better long-term than faster early growth.

I have a suspicion that I'm not that great to locate good city sites. I mostly go for rivers, coasts or a resource/luxury site. I'm not good at finding out what site is good for production and what site is good for food, other than that I know flood plains are good for food. Got some quick tips?

I started to type one of my long paragraphs then realized it's as simple as this: When you start micromanaging your cities you will learn how various terrain affects city factors of production, and then you will see where you want your cities next time.

For now, for early game, a city on grass with grass and bonus grassland around and perhaps a forest or two is a site I identify early for production. 4 bonus grassland and a forest or two will give you around 10spt at size 6 after improvements. A city like that will have only a barracks and be a specialist military city until long after it's an embarrassment that a core city doesn't have an aqueduct. Basically when the rest of the empire is producing enough military to roll the enemy this city finally gets some infrastructure if appropriate.

Regarding RoP, doesn't the AI love to backstab you?

I started to object, but I think they meant to include RoP in the MA deal. That way when the MA ends, so does RoP. (Of course your "ally" will break the MA before 20 turns is up, but if the RoP--or gpt--is part of the MA deal then those parts of the deal end, too.)
 
I've started a game with 10% research as the Romans now, and I entered the MA in 190AD. I know understand much better why 10% is populaer... I've got money in my bank, the AI is happy and 190AD is not much later than I've entered the MA in earlier games at emperor. Hmm. I can dig this. However, I'm quite behind in cities and landmass. I haven't used rushing before, maybe I should do that? I know that it's maybe not optimal to have 4-6 cities at that stage, but by the next turns I'll double the number as I take the AIs cities. So my 100BC I might have 14. It's worked very well on emperor so far. I also don't stop at 20 cities, I build, build, build! :) Thanks a lot for the production city info, I take it you mine all the squares around the city? Even though this game was just a test I might try to win it. But if my neighbours have knights am I doomed then? I've only built some legionaries. I had a horrible experience with english knights at monarch some months ago, that's why I'm so afraid of beeing behind in tech. I still remember it... :D
 
Knights are going to take loses attacking fortified Legions in cities or behind a wall. Especailly if backed with some sort of bombardment. The thing about Legions are they let you just wreck your neighbors in the early game with the 3 defense and 3 attack.

Better than Immortals as they are crap on defense and you can just kill them, before they get in an attack.
 
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