1000 AI Game 4.15.2 4UC+Supply Rework Stats

[randomnub]

In communitu I witness plenty of terrain patchwork where there's 1 desert next to 1 forest next to 1 jungle or similar oddities.

Tectonics makes for huge tundra/polar/desert regions that are worth settle and pick the relevant pantheons.

I enjoyed playing those map scripts, I like the island chains, and respect those who made and play on those map scripts. Not my point. My point was that they make for easier peaceful games, and the warmonger AIs and civs are at a disadvantage.

 

[KungCheops]

VP is still balanced around having 2 ocean rifts separating 2 groups of landmasses though.

What specifically is balanced around this?

 

[FinMc]

One of the issues I see on naval AI is just the lack of units. Ai should build more boats in general.

I find a bigger problem with naval AI is that they don't commit their fleets very well.

They'll sail over to me with a huge fleet (sometimes if I'm caught off guard with massive numerical superiority) and attack, but the following turn retreat half the ships back to their borders, allowing me to defeat the remaining ships as I now have numerical parity.

 

[Nightmare Dusk]

There's 4 problems to why naval combat sucks
1. There's very little strategic movement because of terrain (compared to land) which causes it to be more a numbers game
2. Boats can't heal outside of friendly territory, which makes taking damage on far reaching attacks a massive blow to your offense capabilities, along with there being very little tiles to pillage compared to land
3. A naval attack by itself does very little without a land army to grab ground (which ai is very hesitant to commit over long distances
4. Range/Siege units can shell boats at virtually no risk of retalitation

 

[azum4roll]

What specifically is balanced around this?

1. You can't meet everyone before late Medieval.
   • Being the first host of the world congress requires something other than the Printing Press tech, namely active exploration with either Caravel or Explorer.
   • For CV, you also want to meet everyone as soon as possible to start influencing them.
2. It's less likely to be surrounded by other major civs on all sides, which is basically a death sentence for the AI, and turns the difficulty up 2-3 levels for the human. Not fair either way.
3. It's much harder to snowball your religion to the other continent, even if you completely dominate yours.
4. This is minor, but you can't reach everyone with Caravans. Cargo Ships have to be used.

 

[KungCheops]

1. You can't meet everyone before late Medieval.
   • Being the first host of the world congress requires something other than the Printing Press tech, namely active exploration with either Caravel or Explorer.
   • For CV, you also want to meet everyone as soon as possible to start influencing them.
2. It's less likely to be surrounded by other major civs on all sides, which is basically a death sentence for the AI, and turns the difficulty up 2-3 levels for the human. Not fair either way.
3. It's much harder to snowball your religion to the other continent, even if you completely dominate yours.
4. This is minor, but you can't reach everyone with Caravans. Cargo Ships have to be used.

I think only (1) actually requires a full ocean rift, maybe (3) but I've never seen that in any map setting.
And in my experience discovering everyone is usually done very soon after or usually before researching printing press.

Personally I think testing with different map scripts/settings would be beneficial, not everyone plays with community, maybe not even majority.

 

[azum4roll]

Personally I think testing with different map scripts/settings would be beneficial, not everyone plays with community, maybe not even majority.

Well that's the only map with a reasonable amount of lakes. Default lake placement in MapGenerator only randomly puts 1-tile lakes over the map without factoring in land shapes, so sometimes you get like 10 lake tiles on a map and sometimes 30+ when the landmasses happen to have small enough inland seas.

The other balancing issue is rivers turning snow into tundra and tundra into plains creating ugly and useless patches of land.

 

[KungCheops]

Well that's the only map with a reasonable amount of lakes. Default lake placement in MapGenerator only randomly puts 1-tile lakes over the map without factoring in land shapes, so sometimes you get like 10 lake tiles on a map and sometimes 30+ when the landmasses happen to have small enough inland seas.

The other balancing issue is rivers turning snow into tundra and tundra into plains creating ugly and useless patches of land.

Opinions opinions. It's also a completely broken map script in several aspects and iirc almost never makes proper marshlands for example.

 

[hokath]

I think it's clear that you should expect very different results from Pangaea vs Continents (vs Archipelago).
To play devil's advocate: if we believe intercontinental invasion is beyond the AI (and Ilteroi is retired, so we don't expect that to change soon) then we should focus balance on a pangaea-type map.

Obey the Oval.

 

[CppMaster]

Ilteroi is retired

Oh, no! What happened?

 

[hokath]

Dark mode enabled for the photosensitive

 

[FinMc]

View attachment 706455
Dark mode enabled for the photosensitive

 

[Stalker0]

just making sure I didn't completely miss something. Is this 4.15 with the old 4UC mod added in, or is this actually the new fully integrated 4uc version?

 

[Zuizgond]

I'm wondering if mountain science yields are a bit too much.

Mountain yields sustained by terrace farm food, you can easily have a strong science output (and gold and prod)

 

[L. Vern]

just making sure I didn't completely miss something. Is this 4.15 with the old 4UC mod added in, or is this actually the new fully integrated 4uc version?

Old 4uc mod added in

 

[DanielSPoA]

I feel like too much of military power is tied to science right now. I have been thinking a lot about moving some power to other mechanics (policies, beliefs, buildings that are mutually exclusive).
Basically the tech upgrades overpower everything thats a choice, that warmongers specifically choose to compete.
How smart would the AI be if you disabled science victory? and any chance of a test with a bigger map size in the future? (a smaller scale test)

Disabling ocean rifts will make pangaea-like maps fairly common. Raise sea level too, unless you want significantly more land. Natural landmass divisions can still occur sometimes, but they might be separated only by shallow coasts allowing for earlier/easier contact.
You can fiddle with the attenuation settings in the mapscript's config file if you really want to force all land to the center, but it won't look natural.

it still produces a second big landmass 90% of the time, unfortunately.

 

[CppMaster]

and any chance of a test with a bigger map size in the future?

Those would be imbalanced by design, because Domination and Culture victories will be harder to achieve, while Science not.

 

[DanielSPoA]

Those would be imbalanced by design, because Domination and Culture victories will be harder to achieve, while Science not.

I agree, but I'm curious by how much. My theory is that domination is already the hardest win condition in standard, and the one that scales the worse as map grows. In other words, something to give a little love in the future.

 

[Kis121]

I've said this a couple times already, If it were possible to make naval units pillage coastal tiles like in civ 6 it would make much more sense and give more strategical importance to naval units. Granted this has nothing to do with naval combat :$

 

[Nightmare Dusk]

Just had a thought, and it might be helpful with figuring out if the ai like certain wonders too much, how difficult would it be too get average time of certain wonders being built? Or at least for the first few eras