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1000 Beakers! Per Turn!

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by TheMeInTeam, Dec 22, 2010.

  1. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    Is this good enough for you? :)

    T97 Chivalry
    Domination victory T198 (Pangaea, Standard size, standard # civs). Lots of ugly hills, forests and mountains.
    Had to completely kill off 5 civs (positioning of capitals).

    RAs after T120 weren't an option (AIs werent' willing to sign them: guarded/hostile) and they were offering like 150:c5gold: per resource.

    (King, but does it really matter?)
     

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  2. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I played on Emperor and then Immortal before the patch, and on Immortal post-patch. I don’t micromanage at all, let alone use exploits. I limit my empire size to between 3-10 cities, and my puppets are quickly annexed. I build TP’s only on desert tiles, and don’t limit city growth due to happiness concerns. In other words, I seemingly have a very ragged game. And yet I pretty much win all the time… which makes me think that it would be helpful to state what results your chosen strategies tend to yield. I usually win the space race between the early 19th and early 20th centuries.

    I start with a scout, followed by either monument-library-NC if going that route, or alternating settler builds with warriors, workers and monuments if my neighbors seem close and threatening enough to make a REX approach the wiser one. (The AI is very aggressive n Immortal). I have begun experimenting stealing workers from CS, but don’t yet know if they’re worth the diplo hit, given how flimsy my early military is.

    Regardless of which approach I take, my cities are all built around resources, and I will spread them thinly if need be to get a monopoly on a luxury. The second city is often built to snatch the resources I’m most likely to risk losing to a nearby civ. Gathering resources is at the core of my strategy, as I then sell them to pay for Maritimes and RA’s. (I have focused increasingly on RA’s as I overcome my laziness in initiating these deals, and like alpaca sell both strategic and luxury resources.)

    My third city is built to secure iron if it’s around, unless I’ve determined that I can survive with horses. Even chariots, used skillfully, can foil an early AI invasion post-patch. Once I settle my core (3-6 cities) I pump population in all of them, while building monument-library-market and coliseum when needed (and sometimes a little later). The land improvements are anything but TP’s, since I opt for farms. I don’t specialize, but avoid heavy builds in light-hammer cities, just buying improvements instead. The goal is to jack science via population and RA’s.

    This means research targets are civil service (pop), astronomy (trade, aiming for 600 AD) and fertilizer (pop), with military detours as needed.

    With regard to Social Policies, I experimented with Liberty just before the patch, but have now returned to Tradition. At Immortal I take Aristocracy and Oligarchy, stop off at Piety only if not ready for Patronage, then stay there until Rationalism opens up.

    As time passes, I build every possible financial institution. Almost always have public schools in all my cities (size 8+) and sometimes research labs. Workshops go up asap for the sake of efficiency, as do factories later on.

    Culture takes a back seat to gold and science, and it’s a long time after monuments before I try to add any additional ones. If I do, it’s usually either a Wonder or a Cultural CS, unless I have nothing else to build in a city. I sometimes try for Stonehenge, and sometimes snag it. (Significantly less Wonder building is the biggest difference for me comparing Immortal to lower levels. At lower levels I target Chichen Itza and the Taj Mahal. Wonders help to make up for the relative dearth of RA's.

    The overall effect of this approach is that I am always doing a lot of different stuff, and my game is limited only by civ size (which I do to add drama). Likewise I annex cities just because I hate not controlling puppets. I make the best of it, but don’t consider it optimal. And again, this approach works consistently for me.

    In dealing with the AI, I often instigate wars with bribes, and maintain a small military that’s as current as possible. When figuring on war, I do the obvious and try to out-tech them militarily.

    After reading the earlier threads, I now see a value in building a coliseum earlier in my core cities, if not first – I can then sell my luxuries sooner. For the same reason, if I capped most of my cities at 4 (without a circus), then I could have some bigger cities not having to spend gold on additional happiness buildings. To the more numbers-oriented players: is the size-4 approach of capping here to grow there based solely on the gold savings from less building maintenance?

    And one more question: why would the patch decrease the desirability of early monuments - stalling SPs?
     
  3. alpaca

    alpaca King of Ungulates

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    Yep, got it in one. You also don't have the production for quite a while, anyways.
     
  4. biohazard72

    biohazard72 Prince

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    After spending some time working on a Mongolia strategy, I've decided that while they are good for winning the game, they don't execute perform consistently enough to rely on for a speed tech civ. Warmongering is inherently random (which buildings are destroyed, for example - you want to inherit Public Schools and Universities) and the AIs seem to hate warmongers, which depending on your luck might cost you RAs.

    But here it is anyway:
    - NC Start, then settle for luxuries/resources and sell them
    - Build Colosseum-Library-University, cap your own cities except capital at 4, those with Circus get to grow to 6. After Universities, grab Public Schools in Circus cities, culture buildings or gold buildings in size 4 (culture buildings will wreck your economy, but provide several social policies, and you can keep your economy afloat if you get good peace deals and trade resources constantly. Sell all the buildings late game as you approach the Spaceship if you're not due a policy that will help).
    - RA beeline to Astronomy for overseas RAs
    - grab 2nd policy at Renaissance (Freedom helps warmongering because of happiness, but Rationalism gets you Secularism faster. I'm STILL not sure which direction is stronger)
    - Warmonger with Keshiks
    - Capture good cities, use cash for quick happiness if needed, build science buildings in larger ones
    - Grab a couple lucrative peace deals
    - Build Big Ben for better cash rushing
    - Beeline Combustion for Tanks, continue warmongering (your Keshiks should get Logistics, March, and Siege to transfer over to Tanks)
    - Continue grabbing good cities, setting up 5 production cities + the capital, building science/happiness where possible
    - Tech to Rocketry, build Apollo Program
    - RA abuse and hard tech the rest of the tree to spaceship parts
    - Build spaceship parts
    - Fin
    - Recommended policies: Tradition, Freedom, Civil Society, Rationalism, Secularism, Order. If you get more policies than this, grab the reduced building maintenance from Order or Humanism for a happiness bonus.

    The tech power in this strategy comes from grabbing large cities with science buildings already built. This is inherently random, which is the biggest weakness of this strategy - my first time through, I got many more Universities and Public Schools than my second time, where my tech pace lagged from the mid Renaissance to the late-Industrial eras.

    There's also the large benefit of grabbing good production cities (big cities) rather than having to grow your own - growing large non-capital cities is still a pain, unless you resign them to having next to no production for a long time.

    Finally, all the gold from this strategy (more resources, lucrative peace deals, city capture cash) helps smooth over any issue you might encounter.
     
  5. CBPE

    CBPE Warlord

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    Excuse me, what do you mean with ROI?
     
  6. DutchJob

    DutchJob Prince

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    Return on investment
     
  7. CBPE

    CBPE Warlord

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    Thank you for this! i'll try this approach in ny next game.

    but I've some questions:

    What about social policies? Which ones will you prefer?
    From where culture points come in?
    It seems me that cultural buildings (and the culture's development in general, with things like cultural wonders, great artists, etc.) are the lower priority here.
    Having a not small numbers of (even if with a "blocked pop") cities (we're talking about owned, not puppet, cities, aren't we?), and with poor cultural investments, I suppose that the SP achieving pace will be very slow, won't it?
    Maybe it doesn't matter when you hit modern era in 1600?
     
  8. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Hard to pass up basic tradition for capitol growth. After that, it depends what you need. Hostile neighbors might merit oligarchy. Otherwise, aristocracy for a faster national college (slightly) and access to some good future wonders can make sense. If you're planning on shoving the military boot in the AI's eye, honor is still decent as long as you know you can get at least discipline. Piety is good if you are size-limited and as a result can expect theocracy soonish. Freedom is excellent and with RA abuse you can make it there very fast, usually by the 3rd policy.

    Buildings, but mostly you don't worry about culture early, this allows you to take better policies anyway.

    Yes, but when that gives you rifles vs crossbows/pikes, that doesn't really matter, does it :p. Most SP benefits can't come close to the power of a stronger tech game it seems, biasing players toward science buildings unless playing for culture wins.
     
  9. biohazard72

    biohazard72 Prince

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    Furthermore, going for culture buildings in addition to science buildings can cripple your economy, if you prefer the growth/production of a farm/mine/lumbermill economy over a trade post economy. I'm still wondering if it's worth it to throw down any culture buildings beyond the Monument, and furthermore, whether I'd rather have a cultural city state or two over paying maintenance and having to build those.

    Beyond the mostly mandatory Tradition, the only social policy I need is Freedom. I'd also probably want Order when the Industrial Era comes along, then call it a day. Rationalism/Secularism would be nice, but it's two policies, meaning:

    1. I grab Rationalism and Secularism first, pushing back Freedom, seriously hurting my ability to warmonger. Order never comes in time to matter.
    2. I grab Rationalism and Secularism after Freedom. This leaves Rationalism and Secularism to have a later effect. Order also never comes in time to matter.
    3. I grab Rationalism and Secularism after Freedom and Order. Secularism comes too late to matter...

    Leading me to conclude that Freedom and Order are the strongest combo. The 4th policy could be reduced maintenance from Order for cash, or Civil Society for food (and hence production).
     
  10. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    Great thread, lots of good information.
     
  11. bukalski

    bukalski Chieftain

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    Whats GPT? And how do you use it to steal money by declaring war?

    How do you guys make AI declare war on each other? Ive tried but they usually tell me the trade cant be made.

    Whats min turns for asking peace.

    Also how do people decide to stop city growth at size 4?
     
  12. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    GPT is Gold Per Turn. You ask for all of the AI's GPT in your victory negotiations, thereby stunting them for the next 30 turns.

    You get them all involved in the war by bribing them. They often say it can't be done, but then respond positively to an offer. You may have to keep adjusting it, and of course some may still say No. But the more civs that are in a war, the more tempting it is for the other AI to join the dogpile. That said, this is the trickiest part of the entire process, and definitely not always completely successful.

    Minimum turns before they ask for peace is 10, I believe.

    I've never limited growth because I like taking other paths, but there is a box you can check on the City screen that limits it. So I assume that once you hit 4, you click on it.
     
  13. SeptimusOctopus

    SeptimusOctopus Warlord

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    Actually, the way to make money via GPT and war is to give the AI all your gpt for as much money as they'll give you, then declare war immediately. The deal where you have to give them money every turn is cancelled, but you get to keep the cash they gave you. Also, I think the only diplo hit is in the war dec. not the whole cancelled trade deal. It's quite exploity, but it's not a bad idea to keep your enemy from being able to upgrade old troops or rush buy new ones.
     
  14. bukalski

    bukalski Chieftain

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    what do you do after you declare war? I usually spend all my time trying to stay out of war with the AI. As on difficulty 8 they usually have a much larger army than me. Once in war how do I get out. And does it make it more likely they will attack me soon after anyways from being less friendly with me.
     
  15. grandad1982

    grandad1982 Deity

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    Does anyone else think that the lib should not have had both sci slots removed? I would rather one slot and scis producing less GPP. A nerf to far and also a nerf that removes even more stuff to do.

    What bpt outputs do you look for at significant points, i.e. 100 turns 1AD etc?
     
  16. bryanw1995

    bryanw1995 Emperor

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    keep in mind that different difficulty levels have different levels of default happiness. on king early luxuries are not as important as they are on immortal.
     
  17. bryanw1995

    bryanw1995 Emperor

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    I don't look at year, but I'm typically to electronics btwn turn 180-230 depending upon my start. I always seem to delay RA's too long and I don't steer them at all typically so that number should get lower over time.

    @TMIT: this is definitely the best thread I've seen here in quite a while. Good topic for podcast!
     
  18. Morgrad

    Morgrad Attack Rodent

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    How does one steer a RA?

    (And I agree - great thread! I was an avid Civ IV player and just got 5 a week ago... so off to civfanatics I go!)
     
  19. Misotu

    Misotu King

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    Hallo TheMeInTeam, nice thread :) I have read this and it's not making too much sense to me at the moment as I only started playing the game 4 days ago so I don't even get most of the acronyms yet. Hard, hard work :wry grin:

    What the thread did do, though, was convince me that good science rates are possible. And indeed they are - I took a leaf out of Bibor's book and played King level. Have to confess that I did a mixture of plains and grassland, but it worked well. I got to almost 1200/turn (but only at the very end of course, and the date was rubbish :lol:)

    I do have a question though - sorry if I've missed the relevant posts, I have read the thread but like I say a lot of it is quite confusing until I know the game a little better. My question is factions: I've tried three so far and they are *wildly* different. Which factions do you reckon perform well for a science victory? I played China for this last game and thought they seemed pretty good.
     
  20. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Anybody can do well, but right now word on the street is that Siamese are among the top civs in the game. This is largely because of their imbaphant and wat; the recent patch nerfed away librarly slots but Siam's wat can still run 2 scientists/city. Strong as GPP was in civ IV, it's probably even stronger now since a bulb can instantly discover any tech available for research regardless of cost.

    However, based on my own experiments and on the deity guys on this thread, it appears that by far the most efficient actual beaker rate is to make research agreements (RA), selling resources and doing whatever else is necessary to keep them going. RA is very powerful; having 3 is equivalent to a tech every 3 turns, no matter what point you're at in the game. If you have enough resources and trading posts/other income to finance 6+ I can't picture any other research method in the game keeping up. Since RA have a bias against techs you've invested beakers into, you can often steer the tech.

    Anyway, ANY faction can play a science game well. However, if you want it easy siam, babylon, arabia (for the gold + extra resource trading), egypt (seems popular lately, probably from wonders?) seem good places to start. Maybe I'm leaving someone out or so. I know people have seen success abusing keshik ranged attack on deity too, though that's not strictly a TECH game XD.
     

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