11 Officers shot, 4 dead

Now you gotta at least admit there is alot of tension between this statement and your prior one that:On the one hand you're saying "The cops aren't military, and we shouldn't apply the same standards/expectations to them as if they were"... Then on the other hand you're saying "We should apply the same rights/privileges to the police that we extend to the military..."

Can you at least see what I'm saying?

Those statements were made in different contexts, and so can't really be associated with each other. The point I was making in the "police are not soldiers" comment was that soldiers are expected to kill and die for their government as their primary function. A law enforcement officer's primary function is to maintain public order and enforce local, state, and federal laws. The ability to use lethal force is a secondary function of their role that stems from the simple fact that violent criminals exist that aren't going to take too kindly to be arrested.

The other statement you quoted was made in the context of the discussion about whether or not the state has the right to use lethal force against it's citizens. The main point of that was that governments do maintain that right, and even have the privilege to extend that right to any government agency they deem necessary. Hell, the federal government could put the IRS under arms if they went completely crazy and thought doing so was a good idea.

Hmmmm... I had forgotten about Waco...

They didn't have drones back then but they could have just called in an airstrike instead of having a 2 month siege... those guys clearly posed a threat. Was the difference that there were multiple threats instead of just one? I mean if the Dallas guy was holed up with 50 or so militants would they still be engaged in a siege right now? Or would they still have just blown them up with a drone?

As Bugfatty already pointed out, Waco was a completely different situation due to the presence of children and unarmed civilians mixed in with the armed suspects. Despite popular belief, the police actually don't like killing people they absolutely don't have to, especially children. The commander on the ground at Waco was probably heavily influenced by that fact and probably spent that entire 2 month siege trying to find a way to end the standoff without bloodshed, but simply couldn't in the end.

In the Dallas scenario, there were no uninvolved civilians or children to worry about so the decision to quickly end the standoff became a lot easier to make.
 
In the Dallas scenario, there were no uninvolved civilians or children to worry about so the decision to quickly end the standoff became a lot easier to make.

Especially since they could count on people like you to say "black human life, didn't matter, expediency rules."
 
Especially since they could count on people like you to say "black human life, didn't matter, expediency rules."

Yep, you got me. I'm just a filthy racist who gets off to watching black people getting killed. :rolleyes:

When someone disagrees with you, are you capable of doing anything other than immediately launching into personal attacks that have absolutely no basis in fact?

BTW, it's not expediency that rules, it's maintaining public order that rules. I know the concept of public order and just generally being a civilized human being are foreign concepts to criminals, but some people actually want to live in a world where laws mean something and are actually enforced.
 
Yep, you got me. I'm just a filthy racist who gets off to watching black people getting killed. :rolleyes:

When someone disagrees with you, are you capable of doing anything other than immediately launching into personal attacks that have absolutely no basis in fact?

BTW, it's not expediency that rules, it's maintaining public order that rules. I know the concept of public order and just generally being a civilized human being are foreign concepts to criminals, but some people actually want to live in a world where laws mean something and are actually enforced.

You mean like the law that says a suspect is to be apprehended and tried rather than summarily executed? Because it sure seems like expediency rules is a valid summary of your opinion.

And by the way, I changed it because I do acknowledge you are no racist and subscribe more to "no lives matter as long as it isn't mine" than anything racially based.
 
BTW, it's not expediency that rules, it's maintaining public order that rules. I know the concept of public order and just generally being a civilized human being are foreign concepts to criminals, but some people actually want to live in a world where laws mean something and are actually enforced.

I'm not on board with the race card, but actually, I'd say it is quality of life that rules. Russia absolutely has public order--much more than the U.S. in general--but quality of life is not so good. They've got city parks that are squeaky clean, but it's because the citizens are not allowed to go play in them.
 
Some of us want to live in a world where we can convince ourselves the police are better than some criminal gang.
 
Some of us want to live in a world where we can convince ourselves the police are better than some criminal gang.

They are better than a criminal gang. The fact that you think they aren't shows you have absolutely zero experience with either the police or criminal gangs.
 
You mean like the law that says a suspect is to be apprehended and tried rather than summarily executed? Because it sure seems like expediency rules is a valid summary of your opinion.

They did try to apprehend him. Hell, they had a negotiator talking with him for almost an hour. They didn't use deadly force until it became clear that he was not going to allow himself to be apprehended and sent to trial. But hey, don't let little facts like that stand in the way of your little self-righteous "cops are evil" rants.

In fact, I would say the police showed a great amount of restraint in giving him several opportunities to surrender instead of just killing him immediately with no negotiations at all.

And by the way, I changed it because I do acknowledge you are no racist and subscribe more to "no lives matter as long as it isn't mine" than anything racially based.

You left it in the post though. You were trying to call me racist. Anyway, even this post is an inaccurate representation of my outlook on life. The only lives I say don't matter are those of criminals. They are a destructive force in society and make the world more dangerous for my family to live in. There's a reason I lock my doors and windows every night, and it isn't because I'm worried the police are going to be the ones breaking into my home to rob or murder me and my family.

Not to mention, police wouldn't even have to exist if it weren't for the little worthless malcontents and deviants that think it's okay to just take and do whatever they want without any regard for the rights or lives of others. So if there's anyone in this world for which expedience is god, it's the criminals. Rather than actually work to build a decent life for themselves, they'd rather lie, cheat, steal, and murder their way through life because that's the expedient way to get what they want.
 
They did try to apprehend him. Hell, they had a negotiator talking with him for almost an hour. They didn't use deadly force until it became clear that he was not going to allow himself to be apprehended and sent to trial. But hey, don't let little facts like that stand in the way of your little self-righteous "cops are evil" rants.

In fact, I would say the police showed a great amount of restraint in giving him several opportunities to surrender instead of just killing him immediately with no negotiations at all.

Problem being that they were negotiating. Just how much "trying" to apprehend are you suggesting is appropriate in this law that you are flatly making up as you go along. There is no law, on any books, anywhere in the US that says "well, as long as you tried go ahead and use deadly force."

If he had been killed in a firefight instead of cornered, great. Obvious threat met with deadly force. But he wasn't. He was holed up enough to negotiate with for almost an hour...or so I hear. So how did he suddenly become an immediate threat? He didn't. It was just "time to wrap it up." In a word, expedient.

So, now let's move on to how you define "criminals," since you claim that they are the only lives that just don't matter. Do you want to specify "convicted"? Apparently not, since this guy wasn't. So, obviously you favor at least some measure of "court in the streets." What's your limit?

Ever heard of SWATting? If the cops are erroneously kicking in your door just how much of a "court in the streets go ahead and kill suspects" stance are you going to be supporting?
 
Unfortunately, that would carry risks. Treating them with the wariness one would treat a criminal gang with is in many cases the wisest course.

Indeed, that is what my "experience with police" demonstrates.

One could make many of the same justifications for gang activity as are made for the police's activities. Gangsters don't actually want to kill anyone, they're just doing what they have to do to transact business, and so forth.

Commodore said:
You left it in the post though. You were trying to call me racist. Anyway, even this post is an inaccurate representation of my outlook on life. The only lives I say don't matter are those of criminals. They are a destructive force in society and make the world more dangerous for my family to live in. There's a reason I lock my doors and windows every night, and it isn't because I'm worried the police are going to be the ones breaking into my home to rob or murder me and my family.

Not to mention, police wouldn't even have to exist if it weren't for the little worthless malcontents and deviants that think it's okay to just take and do whatever they want without any regard for the rights or lives of others. So if there's anyone in this world for which expedience is god, it's the criminals. Rather than actually work to build a decent life for themselves, they'd rather lie, cheat, steal, and murder their way through life because that's the expedient way to get what they want.

This draws too much of a line between 'criminal' and ordinary person.
What qualifies one as a criminal, one of the "malcontents and deviants" whose lives, according to you, don't matter?
 
One could make many of the same justifications for gang activity as are made for the police's activities. Gangsters don't actually want to kill anyone, they're just doing what they have to do to transact business, and so forth.

There is a ton of truth in this. Operating an illicit business means you don't have access to all the niceties, like small claims court, calling cops for dispute resolution with an unruly customer, etc etc etc.

Being one of those "deviants and malcontents" I ran an illicit business (not doing anything illegal in itself, just unlicensed) and saw this first hand. Customer stiffs on a payment, do I beat it out of them or write it off? Employee gets ridiculously rousted by cops while walking from one client to another three doors down the street, can he file a complaint that says he was lawfully going about his unlawful business at the time of the incident? Can I file a complaint about the clients I lost? (somehow both clients didn't appreciate my guy getting shaken down on their sidewalk for an hour by a swarm of cops) If one of my employees thinks they are being treated unfairly we sure can't resolve it at the labor board, so do we just take it out back and settle it like men?

And keep in mind, this business wasn't even doing any business that was illegal in and of itself. Most customers never knew that I had no access to any legal recourse, and were themselves doing nothing illegal at all (that I know of in most cases) that might attract attention to the situation or put themselves on edge.
 
Problem being that they were negotiating. Just how much "trying" to apprehend are you suggesting is appropriate in this law that you are flatly making up as you go along. There is no law, on any books, anywhere in the US that says "well, as long as you tried go ahead and use deadly force."

Yep, just keep going ahead and putting words in my mouth. I never argued anything from a strictly legal standpoint regarding this specific incident. You're the only one who has made outlandish claims of the police action being illegal despite not being able to cite a single law that was violated.

If he had been killed in a firefight instead of cornered, great. Obvious threat met with deadly force. But he wasn't. He was holed up enough to negotiate with for almost an hour...or so I hear. So how did he suddenly become an immediate threat? He didn't. It was just "time to wrap it up." In a word, expedient.

Did you ever stop to think that he was the one to end negotiations? I'm not saying that's definitely what happened, but it is certainly likely given his state of mind. Not to mention he was still popping off rounds at police, which indicates he was willing to continue resisting. If he wanted to live and get the due process that is guaranteed to him as a citizen of the US, then he should have surrendered when given the opportunity. By choosing to continue resistance, he effectively waived his right to due process by making it impossible for police to give it to him.

So, now let's move on to how you define "criminals," since you claim that they are the only lives that just don't matter. Do you want to specify "convicted"? Apparently not, since this guy wasn't. So, obviously you favor at least some measure of "court in the streets." What's your limit?

Either career or violent criminals. Those types have absolutely no use in society. Do I think they should be automatically killed for their crimes? No, but I really don't care if they do end up getting killed for their crimes, either by police or by other criminals.

Ever heard of SWATting? If the cops are erroneously kicking in your door just how much of a "court in the streets go ahead and kill suspects" stance are you going to be supporting?

Yeah, I've heard of SWATing, have you? I don't think it means what you think it means. SWATing is when someone calls the police and says some horrible crime is taking place at your house so the SWAT team gets deployed. This is not a police error. It is yet another criminal act committed by those same useless deviants that commit other violent crimes.

There is a ton of truth in this. Operating an illicit business means you don't have access to all the niceties, like small claims court, calling cops for dispute resolution with an unruly customer, etc etc etc.

Being one of those "deviants and malcontents" I ran an illicit business (not doing anything illegal in itself, just unlicensed) and saw this first hand. Customer stiffs on a payment, do I beat it out of them or write it off? Employee gets ridiculously rousted by cops while walking from one client to another three doors down the street, can he file a complaint that says he was lawfully going about his unlawful business at the time of the incident? Can I file a complaint about the clients I lost? (somehow both clients didn't appreciate my guy getting shaken down on their sidewalk for an hour by a swarm of cops) If one of my employees thinks they are being treated unfairly we sure can't resolve it at the labor board, so do we just take it out back and settle it like men?

And keep in mind, this business wasn't even doing any business that was illegal in and of itself. Most customers never knew that I had no access to any legal recourse, and were themselves doing nothing illegal at all (that I know of in most cases) that might attract attention to the situation or put themselves on edge.

Are you seriously trying to say criminals are the victims here because their illegal business doesn't have access to legal recourse? You know how you get access to legal protection? By having a legal, properly licensed business.
 
The only lives I say don't matter are those of criminals. They are a destructive force in society and make the world more dangerous for my family to live in. There's a reason I lock my doors and windows every night, and it isn't because I'm worried the police are going to be the ones breaking into my home to rob or murder me and my family.

Not to mention, police wouldn't even have to exist if it weren't for the little worthless malcontents and deviants that think it's okay to just take and do whatever they want without any regard for the rights or lives of others. So if there's anyone in this world for which expedience is god, it's the criminals. Rather than actually work to build a decent life for themselves, they'd rather lie, cheat, steal, and murder their way through life because that's the expedient way to get what they want.
what an unbelievably linear and simplistic worldview, as if there's some magical dichotomy between a "good person" and a "criminal" without any potential for overlap. this is something akin to what i would expect to read in a children's book

seeing how devoid of nuance your opinions on this topic are i'm surprised people have the patience to argue with you

is everyone who has committed a crime an evil and sadistic malcontent? does this stem from a hate for the poor? which came first?
 
Commodore said:
Yeah, I've heard of SWATing, have you? I don't think it means what you think it means. SWATing is when someone calls the police and says some horrible crime is taking place at your house so the SWAT team gets deployed. This is not a police error. It is yet another criminal act committed by those same useless deviants that commit other violent crimes.

No, SWATing is when an internet troll calls the SWAT team on your house for no reason.
 
what an unbelievably linear and simplistic worldview, as if there's some magical dichotomy between a "good person" and a "criminal" without any potential for overlap. this is something akin to what i would expect to read in a children's book

seeing how devoid of nuance your opinions on this topic are i'm surprised people have the patience to argue with you

It's quite frightening - the stuff that puts fascists in power. As Senethro says, too many Americans think like that.
 
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