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12/1 - Pantheon Balance

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Dec 5, 2019.

  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    upload_2019-12-5_14-28-21.png

    So thought I would do a comprehensive review of where pantheons stand as of 12/1. This time, I'm going with a simple visual format to keep things easy and tidy. The table below shows me ratings for the various pantheons, which I explain below. Note I am applying Immortal difficulty to this assessment. Comments are very welcome to see where people's experience differs from mine.

    Note: I am assuming best cases for the various pantheons (Purity with lots of lakes, nature near mountains, etc). There are enough pantheons that being niche is fine, so I am assessing the pantheon assuming its best conditions.

    Note: NA means I don't have an assessment of it, because the pantheon changed recently.

    Found: How easily the pantheon can found with. For Immortal, that means getting enough faith to found by Turn 100 on standard speed.

    A - Can found on its own.
    B - Can found with some assistance (such as Tradition's +3 faith, an early faith CS friend, certain ruins, etc).
    C - Has trouble founding, is generally not a pantheon used for founding.

    Early Game: How good are the bonuses provided in the early game?

    A - Bonuses come online very quickly (such as immediate yields) and tend to be strong for early game purposes.
    B - Good bonuses that take a little work to bring online, but are still pretty good.
    C - Bonuses are low or take a long while to bring online.

    Mid Game: How do the bonuses look going into mid game?

    A - Bonuses scale strongly or has an effect that stays relevant into the mid game (example is protections +10 HP healing, which is always useful).
    B - Decent scaling.
    C - Bonuses are not a big factor of the mid game or tend to be yields that are no longer as relevant.

    Overall: How good is the pantheon in general? This is a combination of the other factors, though modified through my own experience with the pantheon. In general I weight founding and early game very strongly, and mid game much less so.

    A - Default pantheons. My go tos.
    B - Decent pantheons. I take them when the conditions are really good for them or want to play a certain style of game around them.
    C - Bad pantheons. I never take these.


    I just want to comment on All Creation, where my overall score may look "weird" compared to how I ranked the other categories.

    All Creation - Though the bonuses are overall weak, they come lightning quick in the game. So this pantheon is good for a power expansion or very aggressive early game, so its rating is stronger than its base scores might appear.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
    Bromar1 likes this.
  2. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    I haven't used it much, but I think people say God-King is quite strong in the mid game for civs that can get away with using it. Say, someone like Spain who is likely to conquer and have her full pop following her pantheon.

    Totally agree on All Creation. It's my go-to anytime I don't plan to found a religion myself.

    Ancestor Worship might deserve a B in mid game? 2 science per city is fairly nice for a wide progress civ, say Babylon working science slots in his walls?

    Earth Mother probably deserves a higher early game score- that 33% production from pop can be nice early on and mines are often quite easy to connect tech wise.

    Love scales with era so possibly worthy of a B in mid game.

    I've actually had some trouble founding with Nature even when rerolling starts as Inca until I specifically find starts that are SUPER mountain heavy (and that game even gave me a natural wonder in city 3 I think?). I would have put it at a C for founding unless the nearby natural wonder is also a faith giving one I guess. Maybe I just really didn't utilize it well somehow, though.
     
  3. TranceBlossom

    TranceBlossom Warlord

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    Yeah I'm surprised Earth Mother is so poorly ranked, I'm no expert at the game, but if I have a mine monopoly, it's easy to get them online, and one or two extra hammers early game is always nice.

    EDIT: I also agree Nature is pretty underwhelming even in otherwise ideal conditions. Four mountains near a city gives you 2 faith, gold, and food, which is only 2 food more than the yields from 2 mines with Earth Mother, but now you've also got a city with four mountains instead of workable tiles....
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
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  4. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Craftsmen should have an early game A. The bonus on monuments is a big deal. Potentially it's an amazing pantheon, but its so hard to found with that only India, Ethiopia and a few others get a chance to use it.

    Wisdom is very good mid-game. The science to faith conversion is very strong, basically it's just 1 faith per 2 followers (unless your science is just pathetic, but then happiness should be killing you).

    Nature is far from underwhelming. Mid-game its a A when it applies. 6 or 8 mountains are very achievable, and if you get a natural wonder the culture snowballs into a strong mid-game. It's so faith heavy that you can build monuments earlier and shrines later, late cities can even build arenas before shrines if you want. This pushes your mid-game as well.
     
  5. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    The other trick with nature is that your cities can share the mountains. So you can settle 4 cities on the same mountain patch and all of them get the bonuses. That's where the real power of the pantheon comes from.

    EDIT: I will also say I used to be very skeptical of nature until I finally saw the power with the right start. And then the scales fell from my eyes and I became a true believer:)
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
    Omen of Peace, cerk and CrazyG like this.
  6. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    This may be some of my Immortal bias shining through. What I generally see if unhappiness kicks in for my satellite cities at around 5 people, so getting to 6 pop in the early game is usually tricky. So we are generally talking +1 hammer per city, but after some delay, and then a few GPT depending on the number of mines you have. While mines do kick in earlier than plantations its usually the first worker that really slows you down. I guess in ideal circumstances you use it with Tradition to get that 6 pop start so you are getting +2 prod on your first settler. But after that because of expansion you aren't going to get 6 people in your capital for a while unless you are just not expanding at all. I guess I could see a B for it.
     
  7. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Ancestor Worhship: Its not that easy to found with, but can give up to 3 valuable yields and scales very well into lategame, especially on crowded maps, cause its based on population and not followers.
    Try it with Babylon, and you get for the scientist in the Babylonian Wall 5:c5science:2:c5gold:.
    God-King: Also hard to found with, unless you have a faith heavy civ or some help. Works very well, if you go for Tradition and puppet some surrounding cities.
    Open Sky: Awesome pantheon. Also not that easy to found with, but the pure amount of gold you get by pastures can easily lead into a snowball if used early on (5 pastures and you have an archer every 9 turns).
    Renewal: In my eyes a very good pantheon, IF you are able to see already the area and plan to place all your cities in forests/jungles. Getting culture even for working simple forests is something not to underestimate.
    Earth Mother: Cant remember when Ive picked it, but the bonuses are too low. 2:c5production: when you have a 6 citizen city may be ok early on, but the bonuses directly to mines on ressources is laughable, especially in comparison to Open Sky.
    Nature: Very nice under good circumstances. Simply getting yields right after founding the city is pretty nice, and like already said, one mountain can be used by more than one city.
     

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