(12) Proposal: Tradition Changes

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pineappledan

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Current Tradition: follow link to wiki

Problem:
  • Artistry and Tradition are stacked up, and have a few overlapping bonuses that make Tradition/Artistry a bit Too optimal for tall, safe, GP focused play
  • W.R.T. tradition, it has 2 minor :c5goldenage: GA-related bonuses that are fairly small and tangential, but contribute a lot to this overlap
  • One of the bonuses in particular is :c5goldenage: on Great Person expend, which is also given by an ancient wonder: Pyramids.
  • In general, there are just too many of these GP expend bonuses to be interesting. Tradition has 3 of them alone, if you include the university of Sankore. They make GP-focused playthroughs too optimal.
Proposed changes:
  • Ceremony: Add +1:c5science: to Lodges, Councils, and Herbalists (currently, Councils and Herbalists only. Lodges is a new building introduced in 2.7)
  • Splendor: Remove 50:c5goldenage: on GP expend (currently 50:c5goldenage: and :c5culture:. the culture stays; combined with the 2:c5culture: to monuments, baths and gardens, this policy is already very stacked)
  • Finisher:
    • Remove +25%:c5goldenage:GA length modifier
    • Add +1:c5production: to all GP Tile improvements (now +1:c5food::c5production:. Strengthens association with GEngineers, and GEMS as a group, since artistry is focused on GWAM)
    • Add +1 Working Range on Capital (unique bonus mechanic. No new code. Capital is settled before scouting or resource reveals, so it lets tradition players be more flexible with :c5citizen:city management as a fun novelty bonus.)
 

Stalker0

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So does this mean Tradition cities can work 4 tiles from the center instead of 3?
 

azum4roll

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I like both Tradition/Artistry changes, but are they modular enough balance-wise to be separate proposals?
 

balparmak

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So does this mean Tradition cities can work 4 tiles from the center instead of 3?
Just the capitals. I whined about the earlier tradition proposals, but this one feels fair and fun. That said, I'd still prefer a small, era scaling military supply boost to +1 capital range (can even have both tbh), but not sure what would be a good place for that. Iirc one policy grants something like a National Guardhouse, seems like a thematic fit.
 
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pineappledan

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I like both Tradition/Artistry changes, but are they modular enough balance-wise to be separate proposals?
Yes, but the artistry proposal takes the urbanization bonus from fealty. So there would be an overlap there, but lots of effects are given by 2+ policies, though I would say the Artistry proposal is *More* dependent on the burgher rework than it is on the tradition one.
 

pineappledan

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BTW, all these changes are very simple, and I can do them myself. So I guess I sponsor this change.
 

Stalker0

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So my knee jerk reaction to the 4 tile working was, "OMG my city will work so many tiles and be invincible!"

But thinking about it more, that's never the case for my tradition capitals, I often barely work any of the land by the later game (when I would have the population to make it work). And if your just working the land, well your ignoring the primary power of Tradition. So while the 4 tile range would increase the quality of your tiles somewhat, giving you more options to select from...it would be only a minor increase in power. The main time it would be a power boost is when you trigger a WLTKD and you stop working any specialists for a bit to maximize your growth and get another pop. So you might see a case where the 4 tile range is strongest then....but even then, again by the time I have the pop to work all of my 3 range tiles and start going to 4, I'm not doing that as much as growth has slowed down. Or maybe in the case of working a road, my capital can now work a Village/Town/Village/Town on a single road, again nice but nothing really gamebreaking.

So ultimately I think the 4 tile range is not that strong, but a cool unique benefit. Now for one city challenge, its going to be a power boost, but we have rarely balanced with it in mind and I don't think its going to break the bank. So I'm down.

The loss of the GA bonuses is felt, but the +1 prod to all GPTI is a very solid benefit, as production is often Talls big weakness.

My first glance is this is a minor buff to tradition, and does focus the tree a bit more, but it does it in a smooth, clean way I can get behind. I like it. I will discuss Tradition + Artistry in the other thread.
 

Recursive

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4 tile range about capitals will have a performance impact. Unsure of how significant it will be.
 

pineappledan

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4 tile range about capitals will have a performance impact. Unsure of how significant it will be.
It's already active code, and it is 1 city in roughly 1/3 of major civs, so it shouldn't be too onerous. I think it's the only place we could do such a bonus other than a world wonder without it having a major performance impact.
 

Legen

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So my knee jerk reaction to the 4 tile working was, "OMG my city will work so many tiles and be invincible!"

But thinking about it more, that's never the case for my tradition capitals, I often barely work any of the land by the later game (when I would have the population to make it work). And if your just working the land, well your ignoring the primary power of Tradition.
You can work a considerable number of tiles in the Capital if you focus on internal food trade routes. Finishing a game around 50 pop is common for me that way, for around 20 citizens working the land.
4 tile range about capitals will have a performance impact. Unsure of how significant it will be.
I had no noticeable performance drop when testing pineappledan's +1 capital working range tweak for Tradition. Me and three other civs out of eight went Tradition.
 

Cebrudras

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Since I was a big fan of the range change when it was first proposed I played the start of a game with the Tweaks mod two weeks or so ago. I Grew bored at around medieval since I already got all my VP urges out of my system like a month before that, but the change performed as expected until then. It allowed me to have my capital work a nice fourth-ring wheat tile that was a slight upgrade to what I had nearby and it gave me the ability to buy a luxury in an awkward desert location. I think it could show up a bit sooner, but I weird bonuses like that do kinda fit well on a Finisher.
I look forward to seeing how this performs in late-game.
 

CrazyG

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I 100% support removing the golden age length extension.
I support removing the GA points on great person usage.

+1 working range isn't a powerful bonus but it isn't useless either. I think it would be a fun addition.
 

Stalker0

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So as a test, I decided to just take a datapoint and see how this new tradition would compare to my old one:

Spoiler :

Screenshot.png



The GA changes would be felt (assuming no equivalent changes elsewhere). While GAs become more automatic for tradition later in the game with stacked artists, I am still mostly turning artists into works at this point, and GAs are not automatic with the tougher happiness. You would see less GAs overall, which definitely affects some plays.

I did build a lodge in my capital this game, so the extra +1 science would be nice. Two other cities also were "lodge worthy", the last two cities I wouldn't build a lodge in normally (at least not as a priority), so I would to get the science but it would have a cost to my overall build order.

To the +1 working range, note that my capital is pretty tucked in with my other cities. This happens a fair amount with tradition, if you get boxed in, or depending on the natural terrain, you can't always afford to have your capital super sprawled out. I don't think I would gain a lot of "raw power" from the change, the biggest difference in this game would be getting access to an extra road space for a town, and those two extra flood plain space that I could GPTI on (below my academies). That's nice, but not game altering.

Probably the biggest difference would be the +1 prod to GPTI. So I have 11 GPTIs currently, so +11 prod (made into ~+13 by the 20% GA boost). That's roughly an 8% production speed difference at current rates. That's actually a good amount over the course of the game, and will of course further increase with more GPTIs
 

cidk2000

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I just played a chieftien, Huge, standard 5 cities tall Artistry/Tradition game and finished 400+ turns in on the new 2.7 (not installed the 2.7.2 or the 2.7.1 hotfixes yet) played casually and respectfully disagree that this needs to be changed. on 2.6 ive played many games the split is 20/70/10. 20 being tradition / 70 bieng progress/ 10 bieng warfare. Out of all 3 i rarely go wide with Tradition. and if I do I seem to finish much later with traditon or the warfare based policy. If i take progress i mostly take fealty, and then rationalism. Rationalism is always my go to for chieftian late play. Ive never gone imperialism because by then ive either conquered continent im on and go for a peaceful win or im playing some niche city state play which possibly go tradition/statecraft/? depending on gold/production industry is a go to. if ive gone for a warfare start ive often ended with industry because of the unit costs. IMO Progress is the best start overall. The 4tile radius suits OCC is quite niche.
 

Cebrudras

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I just had another idea for a small unique buff to tradition. Not sure if this fits here, but I do not want to bumb that archived thread again.
Tradition currently has supply issues due to that mostly scaling with city amount. It however also has less production in general and less reasons to go conquer stuff, so the scenario the supply mechanic are trying to prevent are a lot less likely to happen for Tradition. So I think some bonus that going into the red less harsh and thus makes Tradition the 'Supply Cap is just a Number'-tree could fit.
 

Recursive

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Proposal Sponsors: pineappledan.

(Sponsors have indicated that they are able and willing to perform the code changes required for this proposal if the community votes Aye on it. Other coders are free to sponsor this as well. A proposal without a sponsor will not advance to the Voting Phase.)
 
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