(15a) Counterproposal: Remove malus from healing promotion

[Zanteogo]

Counterproposal to this: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/proposal-wolverine-promotion-for-melee-units.679052/

There has been a proposal to make a medic unit as well as a proposal to add a special healing promo for melee units.

However, the underline issue is that for a melee unit, taking healing promotions not only means they don't have other promos that make them better at both attacking and defending, they also become weaker while defending. For a melee unit this just pointless as their main role is as a wall to protect units that have range or mobility.

To summarize, this counterproposal is to remove the malus on all healing promotions.

Note, others have discussed perhaps removing the malus on some of the other promotions as well, though I agree, I think we should stick to one promo at a time per proposal for now.

 

[Tekamthi]

I am leaning in favor of this, but I acknowledge I don't have the same sharp eye for balance as some here. If it needs a malus, maybe it should be something else that affects attacking only, like reduced flanking bonus when attacking etc.

 

[Stalker0]

So to show some context, lets see how the change would affect some core combat results.

Example 1
Lets start a CS 10 vs 10 for some easy math (basically any melee unit versus itself in a straight up fight). I can take a promotion that will give me +10% CS, or a medic that will give a -10% on defense, but I will heal 5 more. Lets see how the unit handles itself on defense.

Damage Taken compared to number of attacks (lower number = better = less damage taken)

	10%	Medic (-10%)	Medic (no malus)
1 attack	28.5​	26.5​	25.0​
2 attack	57.0​	58.0​	55.0​
3 attack	85.6​	89.6​	85.0​

Conclusion: Medic in any form is superior to 10% CS for defense against 1 attack, but starts to take more at 2. Without the malus, medic is superior defensively vs 2 attacks and equal at 3.

Example 2
Lets try a more complex example: Swordsman tanking a cbow hit: 14 vs 16.6 (for the innate +10% ranged defense)

	10%	Medic (-10%)	Medic (no malus)
1 attack	26.7​	22.9​	22.3​
2 attack	53.4​	50.8​	49.6​
3 attack	80.0​	78.7​	76.9*​

*statistically likely to barely survive a 4th attack, though no guarrantee based on combat variability.

Conclusion: What might be surprising to people is that the sword tanks all 3 shots better with medic, penalty or no. The reason is, once you have a CS bonus over your opponent, increasing that bonus further tends to have diminishing returns. And so the extra +10% or -10% doesn't change the numbers that much, while a full 5 healing is always 5 healing no matter what.

 

[ma_kuh]

Thanks for these numbers! I'm always a fan of a data-driven approach to decision making.

I may be wrong, but don't most basic promotions hover around +15% net effectiveness? Like they usually come with +10% baseline, and +10% in a situation that happens 1/2 of the time, or +15% 1/3 of the time? Just for comparison's sake.

Edit: I guess most of the conditional promotions tend to work only on attack, so for a purely defensive consideration, I think the +10% makes sense.

 

[Tekamthi]

These numbers do make sense. This issue never really stood out to me as in need of fixing prior to the recent discussion, but I think there is still some validity to the OP concern that a flat malus that affects the primary function of a unit when choosing an "upgrade", is just not fun. The analysis above is not intuitive to most players

 

[ma_kuh]

What about pairing the malus removal with -1 hp healed (4 per level instead of 5). Does that address the balance concern while allowing us to remove the perception that it's bad?

 

[Zanteogo]

It's actually more complex than shown because healing promos also makes units around the healer better at healing, which makes it harder to find the balance spot.

Another thing to consider is that if you take healing, you aren't taking another promo. Though this was taken into account in Stalker0 tables for defense, it's not taking into account the loss of attack ability. +25% combat power to cities per Drill promo makes quite the difference if you use your melee units to attack cities.

but I think there is still some validity to the OP concern that a flat malus that affects the primary function of a unit when choosing an "upgrade", is just not fun.

This is a factor to think about. No one likes upgrading their units, but at the same time downgrading their units as well.

Also, the above tables are with low tech units, how does this scale as the units get better? Hitpoints stay the same, but combat power grows quickly. Does the percent on the higher number make a large difference?

 

[Tekamthi]

What if the malus were just against mounted units? Might indirectly add some depth to using mounted to strike behind enemy lines. Or just lower defence vs ranged? Or vs cities etc. This kind of particularized malus strikes me as more palatable than one applied universally

 

[Legen]

Remember that the AI knows how to focus fire on a single unit. The healing in combat only matters if the unit survives, and if it can still survive being focused fire again in the next turn (otherwise, it should be retreating).

My melee units are often taking 4 or 5 hits in a single turn due to ranged attacks, especially if near an enemy city or against an AI that has amassed skirmishers. Medic is practically suicide on them, nevermind Medic II.

 

[nekokon]

Imo before we reached any conclusion in 1 discussion thread outside no proposal regarding this issue would pass due to spitted opinions, and because ppl also play at different difficulty/playstyle.

And to reiterate my old points, medic on melee is actually balanced with the malus when compared to other build paths (however not very commonly used because they're the one who tank). It's only underwhelming on other lines (not recon) which need to hit the specific promotion for dmg specializing, and if you're gonna sacrifice their dmg you're better off just using scout medic (better movement, better defense)

Numbers won't mean much when taking actual combat role into consideration, especially with promotions like logistic/range/indirect fire which significant boost your unit's contribution way way more than 10%

 

[Stalker0]

Remember that the AI knows how to focus fire on a single unit. The healing in combat only matters if the unit survives, and if it can still survive being focused fire again in the next turn (otherwise, it should be retreating).

My melee units are often taking 4 or 5 hits in a single turn due to ranged attacks, especially if near an enemy city or against an AI that has amassed skirmishers. Medic is practically suicide on them, nevermind Medic II.

As noted above. When your melee units are taking that many ranged hits, its likely because their total CS is a good bit higher than the ranged unit (which is how they can take that many hits in the first place). In that scenario, frankly a +10/-10% CS doesn't matter much (as I noted in my table). So the medic malus you honestly probably wouldn't notice most of the time in that scenario.

 

[andersw]

As noted above. When your melee units are taking that many ranged hits, its likely because their total CS is a good bit higher than the ranged unit (which is how they can take that many hits in the first place). In that scenario, frankly a +10/-10% CS doesn't matter much (as I noted in my table). So the medic malus you honestly probably wouldn't notice most of the time in that scenario.

More common is a combination of melee and hidden ranged units.
The "ranged only" kills is usually by the human player.

 

[beginner_]

Before a potential counterproposal, couldn't the malus be removed but the healing bonus only applied to adjacent units? Like a doctor can't operate on himself.
(Where can I actual find the current effects of all promotions?)

 

[Tekamthi]

Before a potential counterproposal, couldn't the malus be removed but the healing bonus only applied to adjacent units? Like a doctor can't operate on himself.
(Where can I actual find the current effects of all promotions?)

Tbh, before the recent discussion, i thought this was how it worked already. Didn't it originally work this way?

 

[Recursive]

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