1700 AD Scenario Tech Speed

[Leoreth]

I wonder what people think about tech speed in the 1700 AD scenario. It's clear than when e.g. rolling a Canada start other civs are way too advanced, especially Europeans. Americans on the other hand are at parity.

I'm not sure why that is. Is it even specific to that scenario, or does the problem also occur when starting from say 600 AD? That would indicate Industrial techs are too cheap overall. Otherwise there's something wrong with the scenario setup. Do civs in 1700 AD start with too many techs? Is their overall setup too good?

 

[Temüjin VIII]

I think it's due to the starting techs. It sometimes unsettles me that the some of the European civs start with too many column 12 techs on 1700 AD. Machine Tools (and especially Ballistics) can be easily beelined--and is beelined by many civs. Maybe give them 2-3 column 12 techs at most?

 

[star15389]

1.14 had a similar problem with fast tech paces (especially from Turkey and France) in the 1700AD start and slow tech pace in the 600AD start. Problem runs deeper than just beaker costs

 

[soul-breathing]

Recently I tried Prussia in 1700ad scenerio, monarch, epic, found that almost impossible to be the first to research 10 industrial techs. You can destroy 2 of Dutch, France and England before 1850, but the rest one always research more industrial techs than you. For example, AI England always get railroad before 1800 if I attack Dutch and France first. Also, the tech speed of Portugal is a bit too fast, but not so overpowered.

Same problem for America and Brazil when human players control them. But for them, the primal problem is the lack of improvements, especially for America. The improvements in American core in 1774ad are too lacked than the civs in Old World in 1700ad, it causes America both slow in research and production in the earlier stage.

 

[Alexius08]

In Marathon, the tech speed is too fast. I often encounter Infantry and/or Cruisers not long after I spawn as America. I have to wait for planes and tanks before attempting to complete the first UHV. I somehow manage to get both techs before the deadline.

 

[Royal Tenenbaum]

I would weaken the pre-placed cities of large civilizations, like Turkey. Turkey's stability is also very high, which leads to them being too strong in late game. There needs to be more insurrections of independence in the Middle East in the 1800s-1900s era.

 

[Leoreth]

Changes with the new commit, feedback welcome.

 

[soul-breathing]

Leo, when you want to reduce Mughal and Turkish tech speed, why you modify the unit upkeep but not research cost?

See modifier.py in latest Git.

 

[Leoreth]

Wrong line by accident, thanks for noticing.

 

[soul-breathing]

I have done 1700ad autoplay of America several times, and summerized a tech situation of all civs in 1776ad.

Spoiler Tech in 1700ad :

iCivIndependent:Techs(column=10),
iCivIndependent2:Techs(column=10),
iCivChina : Techs([iHorticulture, iUrbanPlanning], column=10, exceptions=[iExploration, iOptics, iAcademia]),
iCivIndia : Techs([iCombinedArms, iUrbanPlanning], column=10, exceptions=[iExploration]),
iCivTamils : Techs([iCombinedArms, iUrbanPlanning], column=10, exceptions=[iExploration, iOptics]),
iCivIran : Techs([iCombinedArms, iUrbanPlanning, iHorticulture], column=10, exceptions=[iExploration]),
iCivKorea : Techs(column=10, exceptions=[iExploration, iOptics, iAcademia]),
iCivJapan : Techs([iCombinedArms, iUrbanPlanning], column=10, exceptions=[iExploration, iOptics]),
iCivVikings : Techs(column=11, exceptions=[iEconomics, iHorticulture]),
iCivSpain : Techs([iCombinedArms, iGeography, iHorticulture], column=10),
iCivFrance : Techs([iReplaceableParts], column=11),
iCivEngland : Techs([iReplaceableParts, iPhysics], column=11),
iCivHolyRome : Techs([iCombinedArms, iUrbanPlanning, iHorticulture], column=10, exceptions=[iExploration]),
iCivRussia : Techs([iCombinedArms, iUrbanPlanning], column=10, exceptions=[iExploration, iOptics]),
iCivPoland : Techs(column=11, exceptions=[iEconomics, iGeography]),
iCivPortugal : Techs([iCombinedArms, iGeography, iHorticulture], column=10),
iCivTurkey : Techs([iCombinedArms, iUrbanPlanning, iHorticulture], column=10, exceptions=[iExploration]),
iCivMughals : Techs([iCombinedArms, iUrbanPlanning, iHorticulture], column=10, exceptions=[iExploration, iOptics]),
iCivThailand : Techs([iUrbanPlanning, iHorticulture], column=10, exceptions=[iExploration, iOptics]),
iCivCongo : Techs([iCartography, iJudiciary], column=8),
iCivNetherlands:Techs([iReplaceableParts, iHydraulics], column=11),
iCivGermany : Techs([iReplaceableParts], column=11),

Spoiler Tech in 1776(America spawn) :

iCivIndependent:Techs([iHorticulture], column=10), +1 tech than 1700
iCivIndependent2:Techs([iCivilLiberties], column=10), +1 tech than 1700
iCivChina : Techs([iHorticulture, iUrbanPlanning, iCombinedArms, iEconomics, iReplaceableParts], column=10, exceptions=[iOptics]), +5 techs than 1700
iCivIndia : Techs([iCombinedArms, iUrbanPlanning], column=10), +1 tech than 1700
iCivTamils : Techs([iCombinedArms, iUrbanPlanning, iHorticulture], column=10, exceptions=[iExploration, iOptics]), +1 tech than 1700
iCivIran : Techs([iGeology], column=11, exceptions=[iEconomics]), +5 techs than 1700
iCivKorea : Techs([iCombinedArms, iHorticulture], column=10, exceptions=[iExploration, iOptics, iAcademia]), +2 techs than 1700
iCivJapan : Techs([iCombinedArms, iUrbanPlanning, iGeography, iCivilLiberties, iHorticulture], column=10), +5 techs than 1700
iCivVikings : Techs([iReplaceableParts, iGeology], column=11), +4 techs than 1700
iCivSpain : Techs([iReplaceableParts], column=11, exceptions=[iScientificMethod]), +4 techs than 1700
iCivFrance : Techs([iMachineTools, iChemistry], column=12, exceptions=[iSocialContract]), +7 techs than 1700
iCivEngland : Techs([iThermodynamics, iMetallurgy, iChemistry], column=12, exceptions=[iSociology, iSocialContract]), +6 techs than 1700
iCivHolyRome : Techs([iReplaceableParts], column=11, exceptions=[iCivilLiberties]), +5 techs than 1700
iCivRussia : Techs([iCombinedArms, iUrbanPlanning, iEconomics, iCivilLiberties, iReplaceableParts], column=10, exceptions=[iOptics]), +4 techs than 1700
iCivPoland : Techs([iReplaceableParts, iGeology], column=11), +4 techs than 1700
iCivPortugal : Techs([iReplaceableParts, iPhysics, iGeology, iMeasurement, iMetallurgy], column=11), +9 techs than 1700
iCivTurkey : Techs([iReplaceableParts], column=11, exceptions=[iGeography]), +5 techs than 1700
iCivMughals : Techs([iCivilLiberties, iCombinedArms, iUrbanPlanning, iHorticulture], column=10, exceptions=[iExploration]), +2 techs than 1700
iCivThailand : Techs([iUrbanPlanning, iHorticulture, iCombinedArms, iEconomics, iCivilLiberties], column=10, exceptions=[iOptics]), +4 techs than 1700
iCivCongo : Techs([iCartography, iJudiciary, iGunpowder, iHumanities], column=8), +2 techs than 1700
iCivNetherlands:Techs([iMachineTools, iThermodynamics, iBallistics], column=12, exceptions=[iMeasurement]), +7 techs than 1700
iCivGermany : Techs([iMetallurgy], column=12, exceptions=[iMeasurement, iSocialContract]), +5 techs than 1700
iCivAmerica : Techs([iChemistry, iRepresentation], column=12)

I'll try to get tech situation in 1822ad(Brazil spawn) and 1867(Canada spawn) in the next few days. Hope this could be useful to balance the tech rate in 1700ad scenerio.

Also, is there a way to see the tech situation of a savefile, without open the game and switch civs one by one?

 

[Leoreth]

Thanks, that's useful. You could use world builder to look at everyone's techs.

 

[soul-breathing]

Spoiler Tech in 1822(Brazil spawn) :

iCivIndependent:Techs([iScientificMethod, iHorticulture], column=10), +2 techs than 1700
iCivIndependent2:Techs([iHorticulture], column=10), +1 tech than 1700
iCivChina : Techs([iReplaceableParts, iSociology], column=11, exceptions=[iGeography]), +10 techs than 1700
iCivIndia : Techs(column=11, exceptions=[iGeography]), +5 techs than 1700
iCivTamils : Techs([iCombinedArms, iUrbanPlanning], column=10, exceptions=[iOptics]), +1 tech than 1700
iCivIran : Techs([iReplaceableParts, iGeology], column=11), +7 techs than 1700
iCivKorea : Techs([iCombinedArms, iUrbanPlanning, iCivilLiberties, iHorticulture], column=10, exceptions=[iExploration]), +6 techs than 1700
iCivJapan : Techs([iSocialContract], column=11, exceptions=[iOptics, iGeography, iScientificMethod]), +5 techs than 1700
iCivVikings : Techs(column=12, exceptions=[iMeasurement]), +8 techs than 1700
iCivSpain : Techs([iMachineTools], column=12, exceptions=[iMeasurement, iSociology]), +10 techs than 1700
iCivFrance : Techs([iBallistics], column=13, exceptions=[iThermodynamics, iRepresentation]), +12 techs than 1700
iCivEngland : Techs([iRailroad, iElectricity, iRefining], column=13, exceptions=[iSocialContract, iBiology, iRepresentation, iNationalism]), +11 techs than 1700
iCivHolyRome : Techs([iMachineTools], column=12, exceptions=[iPhysics, iSociology]), +11 techs than 1700
iCivRussia : Techs([iReplaceableParts], column=11, exceptions=[iScientificMethod, iCivilLiberties]), +6 techs than 1700
iCivPoland : Techs([iMachineTools, iThermodynamics, iBallistics], column=12, exceptions=[iMeasurement, iSocialContract]), +10 techs than 1700
iCivPortugal : Techs([iMachineTools, iBiology, iBallistics], column=12), +14 techs than 1700
iCivTurkey : Techs([iMachineTools, iThermodynamics, iBallistics], column=12, exceptions=[iMeasurement, iSociology, iSocialContract]), +12 techs than 1700
iCivMughals : Techs([iCombinedArms, iUrbanPlanning, iCivilLiberties, iHorticulture], column=10, exceptions=[iOptics]), +2 techs than 1700
iCivThailand : Techs([iReplaceableParts], column=11, exceptions=[iOptics, iGeography, iScientificMethod]), +5 techs than 1700
iCivCongo : Techs([iMachineTools], column=12, exceptions=[iUrbanPlanning, iMeasurement, iSociology, iSocialContract]), +23 techs than 1700
iCivNetherlands:Techs([iBallistics], column=13, exceptions=[iRepresentation]), +12 techs than 1700
iCivGermany : Techs([iMetallurgy, iChemistry], column=12), +8 techs than 1700
iCivAmerica : Techs([iMachineTools, iThermodynamics, iChemistry, iRepresentation], column=12), +2 techs than 1700
iCivMexico: Techs(column=13, exceptions=[iMachineTools]), +0 techs than 1810(spawn)
iCivColombia: Techs(column=13, exceptions=[iMachineTools]), +0 techs than 1814(spawn)
iCivBrazil : Techs(column=13)

 

[soul-breathing]

For I can't find a game when Canada spawns in 1866, and civs existed in 1700 still all alive, I can't offer the tech situation of all civs in 1866. But it seems Turkey still too powerful, both tech and military, Germany a little weak, for the short of space, and England a little easy to collapse.

I will expound my experience more particularly tomorrow. It's too late in my place.

 

[Leoreth]

Thanks for your continued efforts!

 

[Ecthy]

In playing civs that have tech-related UHV goals, I find Britain tends to be very hard to beat. Both as Japan from the 600 and Germany from the 1700 scenario, Britain will get a vast tech lead that's almost impossible to catch up to, let alone achieve the tech goals. While it may be wise to reduce overall tech speed, it might be considered to weaken the British somewhat.

 

[Temüjin VIII]

Hi everyone, I've compiled a summary of all tech costs (both the old tech tree and the new one), and as well as drafted a proposal to revise them. I took into account the increase in the number of techs per era which caused an increase in the overall tech cost per era, and adjusted and compared costs per column based on it. You may view it here. I hope it helps a lot in resolving the tech speed problem.

 

[Leoreth]

Thanks. I actually did something similar initially when coming up with the tech costs. I'm trying to avoid having all techs in the same column with the same cost so there is some variance in there too. The current tech tree sans era modifiers is actually not that different from what you're proposing, although I will look into the exact differences in more detail later.

It's not that easy to balance though because other changes had an impact on tech speed as well. Right now, the AI seems to value production improvements more than commerce ones so that alone impacts e.g. European medieval teching (later in the game they have more trade). Unless that is addressed it makes little sense to balance tech speed from observation. I also have the suspicion that I need to lower AI timers on proposing tech trades (at least among each other) because of the higher overall number of techs.

 

[Temüjin VIII]

I actually based that on the original one you made, I just added my own input. The main difference I noticed was that generally more beakers are required per era, which is due to the more or less same individual tech cost but increase in number of techs per era. This is also considering the small civs whose AI need to be helped a lot in order to catch up to their supposed tech speeds. I'm not sure if I'm correct about this but I think that with the current tech costs no one may be able to complete the tech tree before time victory, and civs are going to progress through the later eras very slowly, especially if they do not focus on scientific infrastructure. That's why I included the old tech tree there with its costs for comparison, and the changes I proposed are somewhat a compromise between the old and the new. I still have to try out my proposal yet based on the current revision, but I'm not yet sure when since I'm about to be drowned in schoolwork this week. But I think what you mentioned about AI tech timers could be very plausible.

Edit: I agree with what you said about balance, Leo. I would admit myself that I took a lot of time thinking on how to change those values. I made it kinda rigid, though, as I noticed the patterns on the cost variance in each column.

 

[Leoreth]

Oh right, I made that sheet available in the same link as the tech tree itself. If you have reduced era based tech costs, that might not actually address our current problems as at least for the Industrial era, research currently goes too fast. Medieval might be a different issue. Also be aware that I have flat cost modifiers for all techs of an era in place as well (+50% for ancient for example) which are used to help me roughly balance the game before adjusting the actual tech costs and resetting them to zero.

That late game techs are much more expensive is intentional. There are three reasons for this: with the old tech tree you would usually finish it before 2000 and then stack Future Techs, which is both boring and too powerful. Also, all but the first column of the Digital Era are future tech from our 2017 perspective, and considering that the canonical game end is 2020 it should be the case for most civs not to discover them. Lastly, as you mention you need tech infrastructure to get to them. It's an intentional goal to make late game tech modifiers like Laboratories more valuable in this way. Otherwise, it doesn't really make sense to have a research modifier on something you discover close to the end of the game.

Alpha Centauri is mostly a science victory, so you should be required to heavily focus on science to even discover the techs that it requires.

 

[Temüjin VIII]

Oh, I see now. It enlightened me a lot! Although I was also thinking a little bit that if 2017 were a DoC game, the top civs would be researching any of the 5 second column Digital Era techs as of 2017. Or maybe done researching one and currently researching another one. Thank you!