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Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
Im not too sure about that. i quite like the vanilla improvements as they are. it is an interesting idea however. im going to dwell on it for a bit and then give you a decent answer
perhaps we could make race specific improvements?
perhaps we could make race specific improvements?
You could have race/religion/civic specific bonuses for improvements, but adding entirely new improvements for each race seems a bit much.
I'd like to see how Olleus' idea plays out. Maybe find another use for the cottage chain? The extra commerce is great for cottages, but if WH is a specialist based world then maybe Olleus is correct. Playtesting is the answer!
I'd like to see how Olleus' idea plays out. Maybe find another use for the cottage chain? The extra commerce is great for cottages, but if WH is a specialist based world then maybe Olleus is correct. Playtesting is the answer!
i would like to use more the specialist aspects, we can mod the graphics for them too
evolving mines is a good way to give players more time for producing units (which is the main part of the mod ) and it will make pillaging even more effective, perhaps we can think of some better use of forts then too using ranged combat ?!
perhaps we can give every race one or two special improvements or effects for imprvements... btw do i remember right that techs can upgrade the effect of improvements too ?!
evolving mines is a good way to give players more time for producing units (which is the main part of the mod
) and it will make pillaging even more effective, perhaps we can think of some better use of forts then too using ranged combat ?!perhaps we can give every race one or two special improvements or effects for imprvements... btw do i remember right that techs can upgrade the effect of improvements too ?!
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
the improved mine chain should only be avaliable for dwarves, chaos dwarves, orcs, goblins, dark elves and maybe the empire. but i dont see many other races mining all that much. level one mines should give +1 production, level two mines should give +2 production, level three mines should give +2 production, and + 1 commerce
Dwarves, chaos dwarves, orcs, goblins, dark elves, and skaven should also be able to build mines in mountain peaks, and also a new improvement called a "mountain pass" which acts like a road, allowing other units to cross it, and gives +1 commerce.
perhaps give cottages a % chance to recruit citizens when there are enemies nearby, and as the cottage levels up, increase the % chance. (but keep the money benefit)
Forest cottages should give 1 food, Forest hamlets should give 1 food, 1 commerce, Forest villages should give 1 food, 2 commerce. and they should also spawn citizens like normal cottages.
Farms for Bretonnia, the empire and most other human races should give and extra commerce or production after x turns, as they seem to rely heavily on peasents.
Plantations should also give extra production, say 2 Commerce and 1 production. i also think it would be cool if we could build plantations in forests without destroying them.
I think farms should also be able to be built on rice on hills, in the form of terracing (this has always been my pet wish)
just my 2 cents for now
Dwarves, chaos dwarves, orcs, goblins, dark elves, and skaven should also be able to build mines in mountain peaks, and also a new improvement called a "mountain pass" which acts like a road, allowing other units to cross it, and gives +1 commerce.
perhaps give cottages a % chance to recruit citizens when there are enemies nearby, and as the cottage levels up, increase the % chance. (but keep the money benefit)
Forest cottages should give 1 food, Forest hamlets should give 1 food, 1 commerce, Forest villages should give 1 food, 2 commerce. and they should also spawn citizens like normal cottages.
Farms for Bretonnia, the empire and most other human races should give and extra commerce or production after x turns, as they seem to rely heavily on peasents.
Plantations should also give extra production, say 2 Commerce and 1 production. i also think it would be cool if we could build plantations in forests without destroying them.
I think farms should also be able to be built on rice on hills, in the form of terracing (this has always been my pet wish
)just my 2 cents for now
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
That idea is not too bad
it could work quite nicely with a bit of group design and tweeking, but now i understand what you were talking about, and i agree.
The hard part is making improvements too powerful or too weak, or unbalacing the commerce / production line.
Also, i dont like the heavy reliance on mines for all civs. perhaps have mines only be uber beneficial for Dwarves, chaos dwarves, orcs, goblins, dark elves, and skaven, but let other races reap a smaller benefit from these structures.
Have a different, new improvement wich is avaliable to all races, but uber benifitial to other groups. perhaps having 3 groups which have 3 different uber impovements to keep with the flavor of the WH World. for example: the Wood Elves, High Elves and Lizardmen are all more nature oriented, and do not build mines (highelves scavenge for ores on mountain sides, Wood elves do not use metal that isnt found, or scavenge like high elves, and lizardmen use obsidon) in this case we could make a new improvement called [something] which has the following benefits:
[something] (+1 hammer, +1 commerce ) -> (10 turns) +1 production -> (20 turns) +1 production -> (30 turns) +1 production
i know this is a lot of work for minimal playablity in creating all these new improvements, but i think it will help greatly for the flavor of the game, and this is really only future talk.
it could work quite nicely with a bit of group design and tweeking, but now i understand what you were talking about, and i agree.The hard part is making improvements too powerful or too weak, or unbalacing the commerce / production line.
Also, i dont like the heavy reliance on mines for all civs. perhaps have mines only be uber beneficial for Dwarves, chaos dwarves, orcs, goblins, dark elves, and skaven, but let other races reap a smaller benefit from these structures.
Have a different, new improvement wich is avaliable to all races, but uber benifitial to other groups. perhaps having 3 groups which have 3 different uber impovements to keep with the flavor of the WH World. for example: the Wood Elves, High Elves and Lizardmen are all more nature oriented, and do not build mines (highelves scavenge for ores on mountain sides, Wood elves do not use metal that isnt found, or scavenge like high elves, and lizardmen use obsidon) in this case we could make a new improvement called [something] which has the following benefits:
[something] (+1 hammer, +1 commerce ) -> (10 turns) +1 production -> (20 turns) +1 production -> (30 turns) +1 production
i know this is a lot of work for minimal playablity in creating all these new improvements, but i think it will help greatly for the flavor of the game, and this is really only future talk.
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
Thats a good point Olleus.
So this is what I propose for improvements:
farm (+1 food) -> (20 turns) +1 food -> (30 turns) +1 commerce -> (40 turns) +1 commerce (human civs only)
village (+2 commerce, +1 prodution, chance of spawning a unit if an enemy is nearby, available in age of discovery) -> (20 turns) + 2 commerce and higher chance of spawning a unit(high elves only)
Workshops (+1 hammer, -1 food, +1 unhealthyness) -> (15 turns) +1 hammer +1 unhealthyness-> (30 turns) +1 hammer, +1 commerce -> (60 turns) +1 hammer (dwarves, chaos dwarves only)
Mines (+2 hammer) -> (10 turns) +1 commerce -> (20 turns) +1 production -> (30 turns) +1 production (dwarves, chaos dwaves, dark elves, skaven only)
Lumber Mill (+1 hammer, +1 commerce, another +1 commerce if it is next to a river, avaible in age of discovery) (not avaliable to woodelves and lizardmen)
Hunting camp (can only be built in forests, +1 food) -> (15 turns) +1 food -> (30 turns) +1 hammer +1 commerce(wood elves only)
Fishing village (can only be built on coastal sea squares, consumes workboat, +1 food)
[need a name (Market Gardens?)] (+1 food) -> (20 turns) +1 hammer
Ore Fields ( replaces mine for High elves and Wood Elves only) (+2 hammer) -> (10 turns) +1 commerce -> (20 turns) +1 production
Singing Glade (replaces lumbermill for Wood Elves only)(+1 hammer, +1 commerce, another +1 commerce if it is next to a river, avaible in age of discovery) -> (30 turns) +1 Hammer
just another 2 cents from me
So this is what I propose for improvements:
farm (+1 food) -> (20 turns) +1 food -> (30 turns) +1 commerce -> (40 turns) +1 commerce (human civs only)
village (+2 commerce, +1 prodution, chance of spawning a unit if an enemy is nearby, available in age of discovery) -> (20 turns) + 2 commerce and higher chance of spawning a unit(high elves only)
Workshops (+1 hammer, -1 food, +1 unhealthyness) -> (15 turns) +1 hammer +1 unhealthyness-> (30 turns) +1 hammer, +1 commerce -> (60 turns) +1 hammer (dwarves, chaos dwarves only)
Mines (+2 hammer) -> (10 turns) +1 commerce -> (20 turns) +1 production -> (30 turns) +1 production (dwarves, chaos dwaves, dark elves, skaven only)
Lumber Mill (+1 hammer, +1 commerce, another +1 commerce if it is next to a river, avaible in age of discovery) (not avaliable to woodelves and lizardmen)
Hunting camp (can only be built in forests, +1 food) -> (15 turns) +1 food -> (30 turns) +1 hammer +1 commerce(wood elves only)
Fishing village (can only be built on coastal sea squares, consumes workboat, +1 food)
[need a name (Market Gardens?)] (+1 food) -> (20 turns) +1 hammer
Ore Fields ( replaces mine for High elves and Wood Elves only) (+2 hammer) -> (10 turns) +1 commerce -> (20 turns) +1 production
Singing Glade (replaces lumbermill for Wood Elves only)(+1 hammer, +1 commerce, another +1 commerce if it is next to a river, avaible in age of discovery) -> (30 turns) +1 Hammer
just another 2 cents from me
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
good point on the food thing.
The ore fields isnt really something you build. its just an area where people (elves) go to scavenge for natural ore. i was thinking that the improvement could look like some small workers digging with thier hands or something, perhaps with baskets that they keep thier looted ore in?
The ore fields isnt really something you build. its just an area where people (elves) go to scavenge for natural ore. i was thinking that the improvement could look like some small workers digging with thier hands or something, perhaps with baskets that they keep thier looted ore in?
Duke van Frost
Lunatic Killer Robot
I dislike the idea that EVERY improvement that is in the game should be changed and that EVERY improvement in the game becomes beter and better over time.
I like the player to have something to do for his improvements to become better (like in vanilla discovering new techs and building railroads on mines etc.) and not just sitting around and watching how his empire grows and grows while he is doing NOTHING for this except building the initial improvement - that´s no fun for me, I want to do things myself and not just sit and watch!
I´m not against changing the aspects of improvements to something more production oriented, but this is a difficult topic, because most times you just need to get that extra commerce from villages and towns if you don´t want to drop your research rate under 50 or 40% - And IMO the game makes no fun if you need around 30-40 turns to discover the next technology, the constant developement is one of the main fun of cIV.
So if we want to touch improvements (and we have already done this for the woodelves with the Forest cottages) we may just have to do it slowly and think about a very good concept zhow to improve production and take out a little bit of the commerce factor, but that may also involve tinkering around with the maintenance and upkeep system of the game.
I like the player to have something to do for his improvements to become better (like in vanilla discovering new techs and building railroads on mines etc.) and not just sitting around and watching how his empire grows and grows while he is doing NOTHING for this except building the initial improvement - that´s no fun for me, I want to do things myself and not just sit and watch!
I´m not against changing the aspects of improvements to something more production oriented, but this is a difficult topic, because most times you just need to get that extra commerce from villages and towns if you don´t want to drop your research rate under 50 or 40% - And IMO the game makes no fun if you need around 30-40 turns to discover the next technology, the constant developement is one of the main fun of cIV.
So if we want to touch improvements (and we have already done this for the woodelves with the Forest cottages) we may just have to do it slowly and think about a very good concept zhow to improve production and take out a little bit of the commerce factor, but that may also involve tinkering around with the maintenance and upkeep system of the game.
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
Very good point Duke, and now im divided on my opinion
To make players work for thier extra benefits, we should make them make thier workers work the improvements (did that make sense?
)
Perhaps we could do this:
Leave cottages and Villages untouched, and keep forest villages etc the same. (except allow cottages and the like to spawn citizens when enemies are nearby)
farm (+1 food): having a worker 'work' the farm produces an extra hammer after 15 turns of working, then after an extra 15 turns uninterupted working annother hammer. once working on the farm is complete, the worker is free to do other stuff.
Mines (+2 hammer) gain one extra commerce after 15 turns like a cottage, but after that, if you 'send a worker down' the mine the mine will produce another hammer after 20 turns. then after that, the dwarves, chaos, dark elves, and skaven can send down one last worker which, after 30 turns, produces yet another production (workers are sacrificed in this way)
(Alternatively to the final step in italics, we could give the dwarves, chaos, dark elves, and skaven an extra +1 hammer for mines when they research a certain tech.)
Lumber Mill (+1 hammer, +1 commerce, another +1 commerce if it is next to a river, avaible in age of discovery)
Hunting camp (can only be built in forests, by hunters, +1 food) -> (15 turns) +1 hammer (wood elves only)
Fishing village (can only be built on coastal sea squares, consumes workboat, +1 food)
Market Garden (+1 food) -> (20 turns) +1 hammer after being worked by a worker like a farm
Ore Fields ( replaces mine for High elves and Wood Elves only) (+2 hammer) -> (after being worked for 10 turns) +1 commerce -> (after being worked for another 20 turns) +1 production
Workers are consumed in working this improvement.
Singing Glade (replaces lumbermill for Wood Elves only)(+1 hammer, +1 commerce, another +1 commerce if it is next to a river, avaible in age of discovery) -> if a Wood Elf spell caster casts the "tree singing spell" on the improvement, 30 turns later it produces 1 more Hammer.
To make players work for thier extra benefits, we should make them make thier workers work the improvements (did that make sense?
)Perhaps we could do this:
Leave cottages and Villages untouched, and keep forest villages etc the same. (except allow cottages and the like to spawn citizens when enemies are nearby)
farm (+1 food): having a worker 'work' the farm produces an extra hammer after 15 turns of working, then after an extra 15 turns uninterupted working annother hammer. once working on the farm is complete, the worker is free to do other stuff.
Mines (+2 hammer) gain one extra commerce after 15 turns like a cottage, but after that, if you 'send a worker down' the mine the mine will produce another hammer after 20 turns. then after that, the dwarves, chaos, dark elves, and skaven can send down one last worker which, after 30 turns, produces yet another production (workers are sacrificed in this way)
(Alternatively to the final step in italics, we could give the dwarves, chaos, dark elves, and skaven an extra +1 hammer for mines when they research a certain tech.)
Lumber Mill (+1 hammer, +1 commerce, another +1 commerce if it is next to a river, avaible in age of discovery)
Hunting camp (can only be built in forests, by hunters, +1 food) -> (15 turns) +1 hammer (wood elves only)
Fishing village (can only be built on coastal sea squares, consumes workboat, +1 food)
Market Garden (+1 food) -> (20 turns) +1 hammer after being worked by a worker like a farm
Ore Fields ( replaces mine for High elves and Wood Elves only) (+2 hammer) -> (after being worked for 10 turns) +1 commerce -> (after being worked for another 20 turns) +1 production
Workers are consumed in working this improvement.
Singing Glade (replaces lumbermill for Wood Elves only)(+1 hammer, +1 commerce, another +1 commerce if it is next to a river, avaible in age of discovery) -> if a Wood Elf spell caster casts the "tree singing spell" on the improvement, 30 turns later it produces 1 more Hammer.
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
Sounds good
i like it.
I was just thinking though, using those as a base, should we perhaps replace one improvement with a civ/group specific improvement? like the ore fields?
Perhaps Even just renames to add to flavour?
i was thinking maybe renaming 'farm' to 'estate' for Bretonnia, the empire, kislev, tilia, and estalia, and perhaps letting them all unlock a tech which gives all 'estates' +1 food in the 3rd age.
Perhaps undead could build a 'buirial ground' instead of a village, which acts exactly the same, as a village, just with different graphics? and can be built on any terrain (desert, tundra)
Dwarves, Dark Dwarves, Dark Elves and Skaven could upgrade the mine to an 'Underground Gallery' at the last phase of the mine.
Lizardmen and Amazons and Woodelves could get the 'Tree top Village' which is already in the game instead of the village. which acts exacly the same but can be built in forests and jungles only.
Ogres, Orcs, Goblins and Dwarves and Dark Dwaves could get 'Mountain Holds' as well as villages which can be built in Peaks, making them accessable.
Cathay, Ind, Nippon could get the Terrace farm as well as ordinary farms, which could be built on hills. (we could then put crop resources on hills that only they can see)
Albion and high Elves could build that 'monolith' thing in WH3 which could be built ontop of villages and lets the village recruit militia, instead of citizens.
Norsca, Kislev, Hung, Kurgan could build 'Out Posts' instead of hunting camps, and increases the Line of sight sround them.
Chaos, and beastmen could Build the Herdstone which could be built ontop of villages and lets the village recruit militia, instead of citizens.
This is, of corse, only contemplation for the future
i like it. I was just thinking though, using those as a base, should we perhaps replace one improvement with a civ/group specific improvement? like the ore fields?
Perhaps Even just renames to add to flavour?
i was thinking maybe renaming 'farm' to 'estate' for Bretonnia, the empire, kislev, tilia, and estalia, and perhaps letting them all unlock a tech which gives all 'estates' +1 food in the 3rd age.
Perhaps undead could build a 'buirial ground' instead of a village, which acts exactly the same, as a village, just with different graphics? and can be built on any terrain (desert, tundra)
Dwarves, Dark Dwarves, Dark Elves and Skaven could upgrade the mine to an 'Underground Gallery' at the last phase of the mine.
Lizardmen and Amazons and Woodelves could get the 'Tree top Village' which is already in the game instead of the village. which acts exacly the same but can be built in forests and jungles only.
Ogres, Orcs, Goblins and Dwarves and Dark Dwaves could get 'Mountain Holds' as well as villages which can be built in Peaks, making them accessable.
Cathay, Ind, Nippon could get the Terrace farm as well as ordinary farms, which could be built on hills. (we could then put crop resources on hills that only they can see)
Albion and high Elves could build that 'monolith' thing in WH3 which could be built ontop of villages and lets the village recruit militia, instead of citizens.
Norsca, Kislev, Hung, Kurgan could build 'Out Posts' instead of hunting camps, and increases the Line of sight sround them.
Chaos, and beastmen could Build the Herdstone which could be built ontop of villages and lets the village recruit militia, instead of citizens.
This is, of corse, only contemplation for the future
Ploeperpengel
academic precarity
I must say I'm against removing the concept of cottages alltogether. But we could changes their effects yes- since many poeple believe them overpowered to something like you mentioned with the villages. I see no problem making a cottage a less powerful village and keeping the developement path for it until town. Your villages are also improving in time(only much shorter).
The main reason is I like the frustration you get if towns that have grown in centuries get pillaged to nothingness(so that's a pretty nice reason trying to protect them). We also could tweak the AI building less cottages maybe and just disable the last step to town for civs that aren't civilized.
I like most of the other ideas though.
The main reason is I like the frustration you get if towns that have grown in centuries get pillaged to nothingness(so that's a pretty nice reason trying to protect them). We also could tweak the AI building less cottages maybe and just disable the last step to town for civs that aren't civilized.
I like most of the other ideas though.
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
i like Ploes logic. i agree with him
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
bah! why does everyone have so many good points?? i dont know who to agree with
i dont know who to agree with
Ploeperpengel
academic precarity
Yes but cottages need a lot of time to grow not just 10 or 20 turns so I still think it's a bigger loss. As I said we could just reduce the commerce they provide a bit and giving them +1Food near watertiles and the hammer you want for villages(that I like).Lord Olleus said:
Something like that maybe:
Cottage+1 commerce
hamlet +1commerce + 1 hammer
village +2 commerce +1 hammer
town +4 commerce +2 hammer
Normal time to grow.
Duke van Frost
Lunatic Killer Robot
Ploeperpengel said:
Doesn´t a vanilla town only give +3 commerce?? And if a town gives +2 hammers I´m likeöly not to build many mines, because towns will give much more benefits!
Ploeperpengel
academic precarity
Yes? I thought it's 5 but that may be because I almost allways build them near rivers, heh. ok lets just have +1 hammer then.
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
change one of the last commerces to food?
Duke van Frost
Lunatic Killer Robot
Farms give +1 Food, so why build a Farm when you can have a town that produces them? And medieval Fantasy civs should rely heavily on Agriculture.
My approach would be the following: cut off the cottage chain by one (remove the last step) and give the new last step +1 hammer, small changes, but maybe it´s better to only change the vanilla system a little bit than totally revamping it, because it´s well thought out and very balanced IMO.
Of course this would mean we should also cut the Forest Cottages chain for Woodelves agin by one (so it´s only two steps, but woodelves wouldn´t build great settlemnts in the woods either) and here I´d suggest to give the last step +1 Food to compensate for not being able to cut the Forest and build farms an due to hunters searching the forest for food.
My approach would be the following: cut off the cottage chain by one (remove the last step) and give the new last step +1 hammer, small changes, but maybe it´s better to only change the vanilla system a little bit than totally revamping it, because it´s well thought out and very balanced IMO.
Of course this would mean we should also cut the Forest Cottages chain for Woodelves agin by one (so it´s only two steps, but woodelves wouldn´t build great settlemnts in the woods either) and here I´d suggest to give the last step +1 Food to compensate for not being able to cut the Forest and build farms an due to hunters searching the forest for food.
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