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18 months later - how is Civ VI?

The concept of districts is awesome (especially harbour for ships on non-coastal cities), and the adjacency bonuses are very nice. Some of them need work, but overall I find them very engaging. Overall, I find Civ 6 to be lightyears ahead of where Civ 5 was at release.
 
Civ VI: Some things are very good; others are very bad. To name just a few:

Good things:

- district system
- natural wonders
- government system (that I personally like)
- worker charges (that I personally like)
- Ages

Bad things:

- Poor AI
- Poor tactical AI - wars are easy and boring. Domination victory is easy. The AI cannot even defend itself properly etc.
- Diplomacy does not feel realistic - the AI is stupid - e.g. it will stupidly agree to a war with you, do nothing, and make peace with you after a few turns.

etc.

I think you have to wait another 3 years or so. Wait for mods because I doubt that Firaxis will do anything about it. Civ V was fixed after a few years by modders, not Firaxis.
 
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It's come a long way. One of the biggest things to me is thje retooling of religion to another layer so they wouldn't get in the way. It's still not quite there yet though as the AI is still very exploitable and the UI is still very poor. At the very least district placement puzzles are entertaining enough to me.

Diplomacy has also steadily gotten better besides that "instant -15 and denounce for diffrent governments that happens sporadically) Next patch at least the join ongoing war will make things a lot better since atm preemptive declarations are too good as the defender has no CB and is treated like a surprise war.
 
Because of this, I’ve yet to buy Civ VI. But before I do, I turn to this forum of fanatics. So, how are Civ VI doing? Is it a great «finished» product, or are we going down the patchwork fix-what’s-broken road?

It's a far, far better and more complex game than the other Civs.
You should get hundreds, if not thousands of hours of fun from the game in its
present form, even with its minor glitches. By the time you get proficient
most of those should be corrected and, of course, some other bugs will then
become apparent.
At least you won't feel like throwing it out of the nearest window, which was
how I felt with the initial release of Civ 5.
 
I have not played the expansion. I got the original game as a gift.

Taken on its own? Civ VI is a barely good strategy game that squeaks over the AAA finish line.

Compared to older entries with full mod support and other strategy games in the 4X genre, it's underwhelming.

The core mechanics are good and districts were a great idea that made city planning more interesting.

Visual presentation is solid as per usual.

Here's the bad:
  1. AI. Just garbage. The AI fights with itself to make decisions and can't execute wars at all. Even with AI mods and bonuses, modders do not have full access to the code. Therefore, it cannot be fixed without a full SDK release.
  2. Very poorly optimised. On two different computers I've had awful sound bugs involving the sound cutting out after 30 mins of play. So jarring.
  3. UI looks good but as TMIT has said, it hides things from the players. Less forum literate players are at a disadvantage.
  4. The base game does little to prevent warmongers. War Weariness appears to be weighted heavily against sides that take the highest losses, rather than a steady drain on both sides. Getting diplomatic war penalties does nothing but create hilarious situations where you see how fast you can tank your relationship with the last person you invade. The loyalty system in RnF sounds like a band aid approach to fixing an intrinsic problem with war weariness weighting.
  5. Eurekas and inspirations. Fundamentally great ideas, but arbitrarily implemented. Normal speed becomes a rapid fire tech race up the tech tree. If you've reached a tipping point in terms of empire quality, you end up stumbling on the boosts without even trying and teching even faster. This leaves your game with a very hollow feel.
 
I think you have to wait another 3 years or so. Wait for mods because I doubt that Firaxis will do anything about it. Civ V was fixed after a few years by modders, not Firaxis.

I agree with everything you said, except this. I play Civ 5 without any mods, and it's fun, challenging, and immersive, with lots of replay value. Civ 5 as issued by Firaxis is a great game. Having mods available to customize your playing experience is just the gravy for those who want that.
 
In some areas Firaxis has overcomplicated things (city UI for example) . While I am enjoying the game, a few "simple" fixes would turn this into a great game. Making information clear and easy to obtain, having screens linked (City UI again, as in Civ4) to reduce inputs. Giving the player clear reasons for things happening (ie. denouncements, joint war declarations!)
I actually think that someone at Firaxis, thinks that making information hard to obtain equates to a harder game. Instead it makes a more frustrating game for the more advanced users.
The other pet peeve of mine is the missing features, that have become a staple of the series. The prime one is the Hall of Fame. How hard is it to keep a saved record of all games played (win/lose). They have even gone so far as to add historical moments. The last patch even included the ability to see it after the game ends. What if they made it, so you could compare two separate historical lines, to see what was different in the games.
 
The one area that I can applaud Firaxis on is their detailed patch notes. As well as Civ, I am a huge fan of the NHL series from EA Sports. 3 of the last 4 patch notes for NHL18 were: "Various bug fixes and tweaks". That was the entirety of the patch notes. No details at all. Even weeks after, nobody seems to know what was changed. In game, you see a strange puck bounce, was this from the patch, or has it always been here, and just very rare?
 
Civ6 vanilla is way way better than civ5 vanilla (however i have to admit that i've only played one game with civ5 vanilla and left it for dead until gods&kings, so my judgement might be rushed).
With R&F i think that civ6 is the better game, even if it still has some rough edges (like the emergencies).

About the AI, yes, it's still not good enough with 1upt, and rarely a threat (and even then, more of an annoyance, unless you are on the very first few turns of a deity game), but i couldn't ever stand stacks of doom, so i'd take 1upt every day.
 
Civ6 vanilla is way way better than civ5 vanilla (however i have to admit that i've only played one game with civ5 vanilla and left it for dead until gods&kings, so my judgement might be rushed).
With R&F i think that civ6 is the better game, even if it still has some rough edges (like the emergencies).

About the AI, yes, it's still not good enough with 1upt, and rarely a threat (and even then, more of an annoyance, unless you are on the very first few turns of a deity game), but i couldn't ever stand stacks of doom, so i'd take 1upt every day.

I'd call it better than 4 at release too, at least for me. As much as people like to whine about "it's a beta!" with six, Civ4 had great issues with some popular hardware (like mine) that made it either not start up at all or CTD/BSOD. It was literally unplayable (literally being used literally here). That was fixed soon enough to be fair, and after getting balancing out Horsemen Rush and some issues with patches we get what we fondly remember today.
 
While I still enjoyed Civ 6 vanilla far more than Civ 5 vanilla, I think using that as a reference point is not a good idea, since that would be cherry picking one of the worst vanilla releases. Civ 4 Vanilla already had some better diplomacy features than Rise and Fall riight now, for example and this isn't even including vassals from the 1st expansion and a lot of people would argue the expansion features actually made it worse.

Though I have no idea how 1,2 and 3 were at launch. (3 didn't start with multiplayer or something?)

I mean, I'm sure watching paint dry might be better than 5 Vanilla, but that doesn't mean I expect the Watching Paint Dry: Drier to be any better.

tl;dr Don't use Civ V vanilla as a measuring stick for anything; because you'd make a ton of random games look good.
 
I agree with everything you said, except this. I play Civ 5 without any mods, and it's fun, challenging, and immersive, with lots of replay value. Civ 5 as issued by Firaxis is a great game. Having mods available to customize your playing experience is just the gravy for those who want that.

Well, I remember my first vanilla experience just after the game came out without expansions. It was really horrible. Actually, I have not played "clean" Civ 5 Complete Edition by Firaxis. I've always used some mods since then - if available.
 
5 was really terrible on release. It had the same issues that Civ 6 had now.

The content was very threadbare and lacking in development. Policy trees only got more significant with expansions and ideologies. I remember when Tradition was the go-to tree at all times regardless of how tall or wide your empire, and there was literally no gain in going liberty.

Denouncement served no other mechanical purpose other than 'the AI doesn't like you'

And of course, let's not forget the unsafe decision to transition to 1upt. It wasn't completed well at all.
 
While I still enjoyed Civ 6 vanilla far more than Civ 5 vanilla, I think using that as a reference point is not a good idea, since that would be cherry picking one of the worst vanilla releases. Civ 4 Vanilla already had some better diplomacy features than Rise and Fall riight now, for example and this isn't even including vassals from the 1st expansion and a lot of people would argue the expansion features actually made it worse.

Though I have no idea how 1,2 and 3 were at launch. (3 didn't start with multiplayer or something?)

I mean, I'm sure watching paint dry might be better than 5 Vanilla, but that doesn't mean I expect the Watching Paint Dry: Drier to be any better.

tl;dr Don't use Civ V vanilla as a measuring stick for anything; because you'd make a ton of random games look good.
Comparing any game is usually a flawed exercise because you don't know the relative budgets, time allocation, technological constraints and external factors constraining the release. But, people insist on doing it anyway. So if we're accepting this attempt at evaluating the game, we might as well accept CiV as a valid comparison, because it's the closest in the franchise you're going to get both in terms of the market and in terms of similarity in the technology stack.

Certainly, don't compare it to Civ 4. That's a more flawed comparison, despite how limited CiV was at release. There are reasons for the state of CiV on release, just like there are reasons for most things. The thing is, consumers either don't care or don't want to know, unless it serves their purpose. That's the usual problem. It's always "well they should've done X better then", and of course, sure. Things always should be done better. But that's pointless criticism.
 
Great question, not asking for a comparison, just asking how it is, whats the health like etc.

Its better than at start but still has a lot of issues that have not been resolved.

UI is still not very ergonomic
Aircraft are still a disaster, AI not using, and you still cannot deploy fighters on carriers, so much not working there
Diplomacy still has little value
No warmonger points for dropping nukes... I mean really?
UU's are in general a joke, either OP or barely worth building for the era points
The mongols are seriously OP, just so hard to deal with unless done early
... soo many things

Firaxis appears to be taking the strategy of providing new toys rather than fixing the old which is popular and the new toys are fun but add more clicks and layers of effort.
 
Comparing any game is usually a flawed exercise because you don't know the relative budgets, time allocation, technological constraints and external factors constraining the release. But, people insist on doing it anyway. So if we're accepting this attempt at evaluating the game, we might as well accept CiV as a valid comparison, because it's the closest in the franchise you're going to get both in terms of the market and in terms of similarity in the technology stack.

Certainly, don't compare it to Civ 4. That's a more flawed comparison, despite how limited CiV was at release. There are reasons for the state of CiV on release, just like there are reasons for most things. The thing is, consumers either don't care or don't want to know, unless it serves their purpose. That's the usual problem. It's always "well they should've done X better then", and of course, sure. Things always should be done better. But that's pointless criticism.

Ultimately, what matters in comparing games is not the "relative budget or time allocation". What matters is the final product. If an arbitrarily chosen end user concludes a game is better, the stuff that went into its production only matters insofar as they were the steps that got them there.

That said, Civ 4 also had some horrible problems at vanilla release, including in MP. I'm not sure which was more broken between 4 release and 5 release in terms of that. Evaluating stuff like balance is more nuanced. Evaluating UI is not (Civ 4's remains objectively the best UI in terms of inputs in the series, and still significantly flawed, Firaxis should really hire some UI staff one day).

Comparing 4 to 6 isn't really unreasonable. In fact they share an interestingly high number of flaws despite being decade apart using very different systems. UI still lies, some rules are still hidden, AI incentives and behaviors still don't align, most VCs are still pseudo-VCs, some tech paths are still consistently terrible in standard settings, spawn positions are still busted on some map scripts etc.
 
I disagree regarding diplomacy. I don't think you should know every motivation that your opponent had. It makes the game far to predictable. Do you think that France always told Spain what it's intentions and plans were? That's just not how politics is played. If I was (china in game) and wanted to build as many world wonders as possible and be the most beautiful and glorious nation in the world, what is my motivation to tell the other world's leaders that? Sure, some of them might think of it as, "Well if that's his intentions, who am I to say he can't. It also allows my people to view the beauty of these wonders without having to put in the effort of building them." but others would take the other approach, "Well screw him. I want to have a gloriously beautiful nation as well. I'm going to compete with him in the building of everything."

Diplomacy is a mixed bag of wants and desires and that's how it should be. That's why Civ V had the random personalities option (even though it made the AI worse because their personality no longer fit with the built in bonus of their civ). By the time I was done with Civ V I instinctively knew exactly what I had to do to get any leader to either be my friend or declare war ASAP. Shaka? He's my friend, unless I felt doing otherwise. Civ VI has a lot more hidden information, and from my PoV, that's a good thing for a game I've been playing for over 20 years.


That being said; the tool-tips and hidden information regarding everything else like Religion, and even Districts is extremely annoying. And not being able to right-click anything to get it's exact Civilopedia page to pop up sucks. I've never had to hunt for so much information regarding a Civ Game before and that part is annoying.
 
That being said; the tool-tips and hidden information regarding everything else like Religion, and even Districts is extremely annoying. And not being able to right-click anything to get it's exact Civilopedia page to pop up sucks. I've never had to hunt for so much information regarding a Civ Game before and that part is annoying.
Yeah, and I am annoyed that we still can't sort our city lists by column.
 
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