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1840 AI has started the SETI Wonder

Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by Strong Reaction, Feb 16, 2022.

  1. Strong Reaction

    Strong Reaction Warlord

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    Its hard to say where I was at that time, but it looks familiar, like its played out territory wise the same way. However, your research is probably more advanced than where I was at the same time. The poor Dutch never had a chance in my game either :shifty:

    I think my problem in general is that I am too attached to building Wonders. I push really hard for the GLib and that 400 shields could go to other needs. But I am not to saying it does not work, GIib route, since I've won many times playing that strategy. In particular on monarchy, I can recover from a poor starting position using that strategy. If I build it its imperative to find the second continent to maximize its effect. In my particular game I found the second continent but the only advanced Civ were the Indians and the other Civs were on par with me or less advanced tech wise so I did not get much use out of the GLib. I also put a premium on Leonardo's Workshop and Adam Smith's Trading Co.

    I am interested to see how it progresses.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
  2. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Another point that reduces the value of the GLib in my opinion: two AIs need to have a tech, before you get it. So that means it's no longer a monopoly tech, so usually is available for trade. So what I do, when I see that an AI has a tech that I don't: either I already have something that they don't (and which might even be a monopoly tech, so valued very highly by the AI!), then I just trade my tech for theirs and sometimes I even get something on top.

    Or if I don't have anything they don't know yet, then I pick one that they don't know as my next tech, research it as fast as possible, and hope that by the time I finish it, at least one of the AIs does not have that yet. Then I can trade.

    So most often I can get anything, that the GLib would give me, by a bit of intelligent trading and picking my next research targets. On levels up to let's say Emperor this works ok, because by the first half of the middle ages, I can usually research faster than any AI (if going for a science victory). Of course on Demigod and higher, this may fail, because chances are high, that you can't finish your current tech fast enough to make that deal for the AI's tech happen.

    Therefore on higher levels, the GLib may be worth it. And one scenario, where it is really priceless is on Deity/Sid games, when you try the "science elevator".
     
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  3. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I definitely disagree that territory wise they played out the same way from what I can see.

    I took a look at your save and Lanzelot's. The first thing I notice is that you have 6 or so unused tiles within a 6 tile radius of your capital. That's quite a bit of lost commerce (and production) early. In contrast, in Lanzelot's save he has I think 2 more cities in that 6 tile radius of his capital. Or at least so far as I could tell, every square could get worked from some city in his save (maybe not further out, I didn't check).

    The game's score system is a hint here, since it calculates score based on content and happy citizens and number of tiles in one's territory. If you have tiles that citizens could sit on, but there are no cities there, it's almost always wise to plop down a city and work those tiles somehow.

    Also, here's another trick for you, since I saw you took a bunch of territory in your save. Gpt deals last for 20 turns at maximum. But, they will disappear if they get attached to conditions which no longer hold. Thus, as an example, if you know that you can eliminate a civ A in 4 turns or so, and some other civ B has say 5000 gold and they aren't at war with civ A, then you could purchase the gold using your gpt (it's 1 gpt for 18 gold on the minimal aggression settings I play at... I think that's all settings, but I'm not sure) tying a military alliance with civ B against civ A. It would be 278 gpt for 5000 gold. But, since the deal cancels after 4 turns instead of 20, you end up paying only 1112 gold instead of 5560 gold for that 5000 gold. Thus, your net profit would be 3888 gold, which is enough to short rush a worker and buy an army twice if I recall correctly.
     
  4. Strong Reaction

    Strong Reaction Warlord

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    Really? I mean what are we doing here? I made a ball park estimation, it looks like the general territory in my game is pretty close to his. I did not say they are exactly the same nor did I say the city placement is the exact same. The incredibly frustrating thing about forums in general is that people seem to create a dialog in their head that has nothing to do with reality, what I said. It would have been true to say, "while the territory and city placement are similar you could have improved your set up by doing ... " The thing is if you want to have a dialog it would be a good idea to not make one on based on assumptions.

    Yes, I agree I do not make full use of all the tiles available. I know its the suggested sort of tactic that most everyone follows. I think it comes down to an organizational OCD trait I have. I just hate it when cities overlap. Its funny since I don't mind if I capture a city and it overlaps with mine (actually I do mind and it bugs me but I don't bother to "fix" it). For some reason that's OK, but for my inherent cities I try to avoid it.

    Interesting, I never have gotten a loan or even considered getting one from the AI. As far as HoF games I am going to guess that that is not legal, not that I am playing a HoF game, but just interested to know. Also, most the information and playing style I have is organic. Meaning, I rarely read guides or other peoples strategies. I want to figure it out on my own. In a way borrowing someones ideas seems like cheating, I know its not but it feels like it.

    I know no one asked but here is a weird impulse I have when I capture a, lets say, size twelve city. I will build workers until the population is two and then build a settler. Then I will relocate the city to a more advantageous position usually with an "organic" settler so I can keep the "free" settler. In the long run I don't think its an efficient tactic and its something akin to digital slavery. The bonuses, 10 free workers i.e. cost no gpt and one settler that cost no gpt. Is it the most efficient way to play? Probably not, just leaving the city and moving on would most likely be the better play. By games end, I usually have somewhere around 30 plus "captured" workers to clean up the inevitable pollution that happens after the industrial age.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2022 at 3:30 PM
  5. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Not quantity of territory. The number of worked, or workable tiles is different. Notice that in your final save you have some tiles near your capital which have no improvements on them, and have no cities in range that can work them. If you had the same cities in a 10 tile radius of your capital, you definitely had less commerce and production than Lanzelot by that point in time.

    One idea that I think some people have used before is to have metros and suburbs. You would basically place cities such that one city gets as many workable tiles as possible. The other city is a suburb which only gets gaps in between metros, and works only gap tiles. Such suburbs can still be useful for workers, settlers, and artillery units like catapults, trebuchets, etc., since they don't require a barracks, and such cities will be weaker in production. Such suburbs might also not need marketplaces or aqueducts or other city improvements.

    I agree. I compared saves, and did not work from assumptions. I saw significant differences in the tiles that could be worked in the ring of cities around each of your capitals.

    It's legal for the HoF. In fact, as far as I can tell, it's allowed for XOTM competitions as well for the example I gave with military alliances. It wouldn't be allowed with deliberate disconnecting of trade routes (road pillaging to neg deals) in XOTM competition, but such is legal for the HoF.

    If you can get the AI to declare on you, say they have units in your territory, but you are weak compared to them, and you make them furious, that's another way to get stuff for free.

    But, such tactics only work best on higher levels where the AI will have gold or if you trail in technology. Using such tactics wouldn't lead to faster finishes or higher scores on Regent and below for HoF entries for sure.
     
  6. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Tip: you can also "settler-disband" a town at size 1, provided that it currently makes 0 food (or negative). That means you can build an extra free worker.

    Regarding city spacing and available tiles: yes, my city spacing is much tighter, since I like my cities to "overlap". For my play style it has several benefits:
    • In the beginning it can be useful, if towns can switch improved food-bonus or production tiles back and forth between them, when one town doesn't need a certain tile (e.g. when food or shields would "overrun" anyway).
      Best example: we have only one cow tile (4 food) in the inner ring. But with a granary, a town needs 10 food for growth. Giving the cow-tile to one town continuously would result in 3x4 = 12 food, so 2 food would be wasted each growth cycle. If I give that cow to another town for one out of every three turns, the original town would still grow in 3 turns with 2+4+4 food, and the other town can also grow faster with that 4food tile once every three turns...
      Same for optimizing production overrun, e.g. a mined hill that's not needed to finish the current production, can be lent to a neighboring city for 1-2 turns, to speed up that city's production.

    • Cities closer to the capital means lower corruption and therefore more commerce and production

    • I don't play with metropolises. Hospitals come pretty late in the game and require an optional tech (which I usually skip in order to reach UN or Spaceship one tech faster). A size 12 city can work 12 tiles. If I would plan for metropolises already in the beginning, where every metro can work 22 tiles, then 10 of these tiles would not be worked by a citizen for half of the game. So the yields (commerce & production) of almost half of my territory is not being harvested for half of the game (or even longer, as it still takes a while after the hospital is finished, before the metro has grown from 12 to 22). Especially for the "not-so-corrupted territory" (let's say the territory within a radius of 15 around the capital) this is a big waste of resources.
      If, for example, I have 200 tiles available, then it does not matter much, whether I utilize these 200 tiles with 9 metropolises of size 22, or with 17 cities of size 12. The net income is the same. (Even corruption will probably be about the same: my inner cities will have lower corruption than these metros, while my outer cities will have higher corruption.) But with the size-12 cities I can get to the point where every tile is utilized much faster than with metros! (Let's say sometime in the middle of the middle ages compared to some time in the middle of the industrial age.) This means much faster research in the first half of the game.
     
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  7. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Also, you don't pay as much in unit support with the 17 cities before hospitals at least. Nor have to spend the shields to make the hospitals, and then pay upkeep on the hospitals also.
     
  8. Strong Reaction

    Strong Reaction Warlord

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    OK, I have a couple of questions for you. First, do you make a lot of use out of the Civassist tool you mentioned as far as determining where your cities are placed. Second, where is a good place to dl the latest version? I dl'd the one from this site, but I get an error upon installation (Win7). I am not sure that the link is best source for it

    Concerning your play-through, from the 520 BC sav, I noticed, I don't have it pulled up so this is all from memory, that you have a Stack of offensive unit deep into Dutch territory, a stack at the capital, single intermittent units within your territory, and many of your cities unguarded. In fact your military is not really that large if I remember correctly. That being said the Dutch seem to be in their death throes so they are not really a threat , but it seems rather inviting for the other Civs. When I leave one city unguarded the AI usually sniffs it out one way or the other, especially with aggressive civs, Germans etc. Is this your regular strategy or just temporary. Also, I think the stack at the capital acts as sort of a fire brigade unit, no?
     
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  9. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Having seen Lanzelot play, and from other people's strategies, that's probably his regular strategy. The AIs you stand at war with generally won't go for cities at the back of your empire. They will go for border cities. That said, if you see any ships moving, they might land units near one of your coastal towns, given you are at war with them already.

    That all said, if you have a coastal capital, and you aren't at war with someone, and they decided to attack you (or you go to war with them), you're on an island with no cities of theirs connected to, then they will try to attack your empty capital first (or will if it's your biggest and/or most prosperous city). That's somewhat exceptional though.

    So, in general, you only need to defend border cities. Especially once you have rails. If the AIs make it to marines or are Scandinavia, then you might need to defend coastal cities which aren't border cities also. If the AI you are at war with never had access to horses, you likely don't need any defensive units. You only need enough attackers (hopefully with artillery support) to kill off all invaders.
     
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  10. tjs282

    tjs282 Stone \ Cold / Fish

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    The "latest version" of CAII was/is supposed to have been updated for use with Win10, but it doesn't seem to be installing/ working properly for a lot of people, not just you.

    For Win7, though, I don't think you need the newer version anyway. I have a WinXP laptop, and a Win8.1 desktop, and (I'm pretty sure that) I have installed the older version of CAII on both of them, and it runs without any problems.

    That is, it does once I've confirmed yet again with the Win8.1 UAC-query that yes, I really do want to run this "program from an unknown publisher" (and now I have the @Flintlock patch installed, I have to do that for C3C as well...).

    I would have to check exactly which version-number of CAII I have, but AFAIK that older version is still available on CFC: you just have to go back some way through the CAII thread...
     
  11. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    @Strong Reaction : Spoonwood described it very well. That's my regular strategy. Why protect something that the AI will never be able to attack? The intermittent units in my territory are "reinforcements" on their way to the front.

    Perhaps I can add something about my usual ratio "offensive vs. defensive units": on the lower difficulty levels (let's say up to Regent/Monarch, depending on how strong the AIs are), I hardly build any defensive units. Their firepower is not so strong that it really poses a threat. Many attackers, who are able to strike hard and kill the AIs attackers before they are able to attack my units, is the best way for quick decisive wars. (The current game is a little bit different, because I'm going for a science win and therefore libraries, markets, universities etc. have priority and my military is a bit on the weak side in this game. If going for a military victory, I would probably already have taken most of the Netherlands and Mayas by this time.)

    Things change a bit on the higher difficulty levels, however. Here the AI has many units, and I made the experience that when I send a large force of undefended horsemen into enemy territory, they'll throw a lot of archers, swordsmen and even MedInf at me and I have suffered considerable losses. Therefore on Demigod (sometimes even Emperor, if the AI appears strong) I send a few spearmen or even pikes, if I already have them, along with my invasion force, to protect my attackers from counter-attacks.

    I can confirm what tjs282 said about CivAssistII: I tried the "new version" of CA on Win7 and Win10, but cannot get it to work at all -- even though it is supposed to be for the newer Windows version. So I went back to the "old version" and it works perfectly on my Win7 desktop and with some limitations on my Win10 notebook. (On Win10 I have to manually load the autosave each turn: it doesn't automatically notice the end of turn for some reason.)

    I use CivAssist heavily for all micro-management related tasks and for trade overview. But my city placement is not based on CA. I do a bit of "calculation in the head" to check that the new town will eventually have approx. 12 tiles with enough food for 12 citizens and then I go for it. Exceptions are made for important resources, maybe a chokepoint garrison with walls to keep the AI at bay (at the higher difficulty levels), etc.

    Stay tuned for later today. I have some time this evening and will probably be able to finish the middle ages. You'll also find out, what the stack in the Netherlands is/was doing... ;)
     
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  12. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    How did the barbarian uprising go Lanzelot?
     
  13. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Game update, Ancient Age:
    The ancient age was pretty uneventful. Worth noting is, that quite early, I think I had 4-5 towns at that time, I popped a settler from a hut, and it needed only like 5 turns to walk back home to found a town in prime first-ring position. That is of course a nice boost, mitigating a bit the lack of food in our start position.

    Republic was established in 1375 BC. I concentrated mostly on the build-up of a future core, and built only a small military. This small force was then used to attack the Netherlands in 850 BC. I took The Hague with iron (you cannot leave iron to the Dutch...) and then sent my stack to the Dutch first-ring towns (Rotterdam, Utrecht) avoiding the capital. Why? I noticed that Amsterdam had started the Great Lighthouse quite early. A non-corrupt capital with the Monarch-discount and same decent production might indeed have a good chance of finishing that wonder for me on time. (Amsterdam had already won the race for the Colossus, so might indeed be the best of the AI's coastal towns.)

    To answer Spoonwood's question: the uprising went surprisingly well. In the 510 BC save you can see quite a stack of barb horsemen down at Tamuin, and I already feared I would have to declare Tamuin as a party town, but most barbs died attacking my swordsman on the mountain and the Maya spear/settler pair. In the end, they did kill that spear/settle pair, though...

    510 BC save is attached to post #18
     
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  14. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Game update, Middle Age:
    In 450 BC the red-lined galley that can be seen down in Spain in the 510 BC save, made it to India, but then was sunk by barbs before meeting any of the other nations on the second continent. I did not have many resources left for further ships, so decided to postpone discovery of the rest of the second continent until I had the lighthouse and a coastal town that had already completed its infrastructure build-up.

    As already indicated in the last update, once my military had captured most Dutch towns, I made peace (390 BC) in order to let Amsterdam complete "my" Great Lighthouse. Instead I used my military for a first small campaign against the Mayas in 250 BC. I got lucky and got an MGL, which was used to rush the Forbidden Palace in the nice Maya core area in 90 AD in Ixtapulca.

    Got a second MGL shortly after, which was used for a Horsemen Army.

    Capturing Chichen Itza turned out to be quite a chore, I even got into a bit of war weariness. My military was too weak (core was still busy building Universities, Tenochtitlan had just finished the Copernicus Observatory in 30 AD, and stuff like that, so no time for building a decent military...), and the Mayas also had their Golden Age at that time due to a Bowman victory. But I did not want to concede peace before capturing Chichen Itza, because that was distance 3 from my Forbidden Palace town, and I wanted to get a decent ring around the FP up and running as soon as possible. So I dragged on...:rockon:

    190 AD finally saw the capture of Chichen Itza. Made peace and regrouped for the capture of Amsterdam, expecting the completion of the Lighthouse any moment now. That moment came in 260 AD, the Dutch did not put up much resistance, but they had a number of far away towns, which took forever to send troops there. But the Dutch and Maya mainlands were in my hands by 280 AD.

    Meanwhile I had gotten an SGL, which was used to rush Newton's University in Tenochtitlan in 290 AD. This also started my Golden Age at a convenient time, because I could now finish all remaining middle age techs in 4 turns and also could use the extra shields for finishing those expensive universities and other important stuff in the last first&second ring cities.

    2-3 techs later I got another SGL, which I am still keeping for later. The Knights Templar had already been finsihed at that time, Leonardo's Workshop had like 10 turns left, so no use to waste the SGL on that, the Sistine Chapel is useless for me, as I don't have any temples, much less any cathedrals, and SunTzu's Academy is not really needed in this game. So for lack of anything useful, I'm keeping that SGL in stock. Perhaps I can use it at the beginning of the Modern Age to rush Darwin's Voyage and get two expensive modern age techs (instead of the usual Atomic Theory and Electronics) But that depends on how fast the AI is progressing, and whether they are threatening to get Darwin before that.

    In 380 AD I finally discovered the last remaining AI. A bit too late for a science game, I should have prioritized that a bit more. However, there was no way to discover Babylon (the only scientific nation) in time to get their middle age freebee, and for their industrial freebee it was early enough.

    I finally entered the Industrial Age in 480 AD, immediately gifted the entire middle age (except for like 2-3 techs which they already knew) to Babylon and got really lucky: Babylon got Steam Power! :woohoo:

    However, I had to pay an arm and a leg in order to buy it. Good luck that I was able to accumulate quite a bank account during my Golden Age.

    babylon_deal.png

    I only hope, they will not have spent all that gold by the time I discover my first industrial tech, so I can buy some of that back... I did not want to first research Medicine and then trade Medicine for Steam, as a) having Steam asap is really worth it, starting those powerful rails asap and b) I want to skip Medicine for now and rather do the "inner techs", Electricity, Replacable Parts, Industrialization etc. and hope that meanwhile Babylon researches Medicine themselves, then I have the option for another nice trade. I can research quite a long time before I need Medicine.

    Big bummer: after I traded Steam, I discover that I don't have coal connected yet... Sending some workers in that direction, it will fortunately only take 3 turns to connect it.

    Other noteworthy points: by now I have 5 luxuries connected on my continent. (3 in my territory, spices colony down at Harlem and incense colony down at Jilotzingo) Thanks to Magnetism I can now trade with the other continent and bought ivory and furs for some outdated techs. So with a total of 7 luxuries, I can now go 0% on the lux slider and research at least the first couple of industrial techs in 4 turns, even after my Golden Age has ended.
     

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    Last edited: May 13, 2022 at 5:17 PM
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  15. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    That's interesting. When they had few cities, they might still have been building The Great Lighthouse with no more military units coming out. I guess that's one way that tiny maps can screw over the AIs, since they will build wonders even if under attack, I think, and thus have more quickly dwindling units.
     
  16. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I think you mean a javelin thrower. The bowman is the Babylonian replacement for an archer.

    I guess I'll have to check, but Newton's isn't agricultural or militaristic if I recall correctly. So, what were the wonders that you had captured that were militaristic and agricultural? The Great Wall and the Pyramids? For anyone who doesn't know, you can trigger a golden age by having control of one wonder with each of your traits, and then building another great wonder. Come to think of it though I feel kind of surprised you didn't use a jaguar warrior to trigger a golden age.

    This also surprises me, since it gives up the chance to get MGLs, if I recall correctly. But, if you don't have plans to take more territory, it does make sense.

    Edit: Looking at the save now, it seems that you built Leonardo's Workshop ... oh, you also built Knights Templar in your capital? Not sure I understand either of those for this game. Especially not both. You build a colosseum in your capital??? That one is the most baffling. You have at least one granary that you can sell (while still keeping those the granary from the Pyramids), if you want the gold I suppose.

    I also saw that Huexolta and Palenque are producing libraries. I'm not sure, but it's possible those cities might profit more from building courthouses first. The calculations here might be interesting.

    But, most of that seems rather small. You have this game well in hand Lanzelot. The AIs are still building Sun Tzu's Art of War and you're in the industrial era among other things.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2022 at 3:32 AM
  17. justanick

    justanick Emperor

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    A size 12 city can work 12 tiles in addition to the city tile. A size 20 metropolis can work 20 tiles in addition to the city tile. Any further population point can only be a specialist. So it is only 8 tiles that would not be used half of the game.

    In practize aiming for 20 tiles in addition to the city tile is not a good long term strategy as it requires to have many tiles that cannot be used by any settlement. So usually one ends up with an average of about 16 tiles in addition to the city tile for the sake of avoiding unused tiles.

    It is maximizing the used tiles first and minimizing the amount of settlements needed for that second that will result in optimal long term yields. Maximizing the used tiles first does especially entail to optimize coastal tiles, the settlements not at the coast will have to follow this lead.

    While placing cities with this long term strategy may make sense, placing some further temporary cities would be required to bridge the time till Sanitation.

    21 Metros at an average size of 16 in the run long imply 21x4=84 unused tiles in the short run. To avoid that 84/(6+1)=12 towns of size 6 or 84/(12+1)=6.46 cities of size 12 would be needed in the meantime. So that would be around 1 temporary settlement for every 2 permanent ones.

    Just going strait for size 12 even in the long run like you prefer is a strategy that is easier to implement, delivers good results and (pending details) better results as determined by say the date of entering the modern age.
     
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  18. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    It might be more like 2/3 of the game. I mean, the game has to go well into the modern era for it be 1/2 of the game.


    There's also the turn based nature of the game to consider. If you have 6 powerful cities producing units, there's likely some shield overflow. But, if you have 9 not quite as powerful cities producing units, there's still shield overflow, but there's more cities producing units. Maybe, a better off-the-top of my head made up number is that a size 15 city producing 44 shields is no better at producing cavalry or artillery proper than a size 12 city producing 40 shields. A size 15 city producing 30 shields is no better than at producing cavalry or artillery proper than a size 12 city producing 27 shields. A size 15 city producing 26 shields is no better at producing cavalry or artillery proper than a size 10, 11, or 12 city producing 20 shields. A size 15 city producing 30 shields is no better at producing tanks or bombers than a 12 city producing 25 shields. And even worse, that size 13+ city has a greater probability of getting pollution and thus losing out on a shield, while size 12 cities without a hospital only can get pollution from a factory or coal plant.
     
  19. justanick

    justanick Emperor

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    Well, the main advantage of the metropolis strategy is the higher output of net commerce due to lower corruption and a building maintenance bill that is about one third lower. Hence the research output will be higher. But for that to matter in the first place research costs must be high enough. That condition is easily met at Sid, but below Sid the lower limit of 4 turns per tech is a big concern.
     
  20. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Strong Reaction,

    I took a look at the editor Civ3ConquestsEdit. I don't know if this comes with the Steam or GOG versions, but it is included on the disks. It has some ways of making it so that metro spacing more balanced with city spacing (there's still the unworkable tile issue probably):

    1. In the general settings tab, the maximum population limit for a city can get changed to scale above 12 (see screenshot).

    2. Another method might lie in making it so that hospitals can get built after acquiring some earlier tech than sanitation.

    As a caveat, such changes would affect both you and the AIs.

    Settings.jpg
     

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