1920's Leaders

[Hunter]

I am working on a mod and need some information:
1920's Leaders for:
Portugal in 1924 (head of state and hero's From WW1)

Dutch in 1924 (head of state and hero's From WW1)

Greece in 1924 (head of state and hero's From WW1)

Italy Most likely NON Fascist leaders as my senario will not have a Fascist Germany to suport them. (Im unsure if Fascism would have come to pass in Italy without German help )

Hero's from the Balkands who helped the Allies in WW1.

Any help or sugestions would be nice, thanks.

PS:
Mod is "The 11th hour" and it is a world where WW1 did not end.

 

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Hunter
Italy Most likely NON Fascist leaders as my senario will not have a Fascist Germany to suport them. (Im unsure if Fascism would have come to pass in Italy without German help )

Historically, Fascism was italian: Mussolini take the power on 1922 and Hitler on 1933. When Benito went to Berlin for a visit, when Hitler become canchellor, the whole world give more importance to the italian leader than the german one.

BTW, you can use Giovanni Giolitti: he was the last prime minister first than Mussolini.

 

[LouLong]

Greece : Venizelos (PM). Greece was a Republic between 1924 and 1935. Opposition of the Royalists that took the power in 1935 after Venizelos tried himself a coup d'etat. Before that he had been elected and made a few agricultural reforms, mostly to take care of the numerous Greeks fleeing from Bulgaria and especially from Turkey.

Portugal : really unstable until 1926 when a general (Da Costa) organized a coup d'etat against the Republic. 3 months later, the General Carmona became the "elected" president with Salazar as Finance minister (he will later become dictator (32/33). His "New Order" was socially very conservative but he was efficient as far as finances were concerned.

Dutch : Queen Wilhemine from 1898 to 1948. I think she can do. Only special moment : crisis minister in 1933 until 1939 (Colijn) after the economical and financial crisis.

Italy : Facism is definitely Italian, trust Rufus. The name is said to come from "fasci", a kind of organization for right-wing extremists (often ex WWI shock troops). Hitler who did not have much respect for Italians had much respect for Mussolini who was for him both a mentor and a "tester". Nazism is but one branch of facism, it is not the other way around.

About heros, cannot help you much. Of course Velazenos in Greece was famous for territories he got from the different wars (from Balkanic 1 and 2 to WWI) but since he is as well the political leader. Nationals could probably help you more on that.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Yeah, fascism started in Italy and was already well established before Hitler ever came to power.


I think you're confusing them with Spain where fascism would probably not have taken hold if it weren't for German support.

Btw, IIRC, Portugal didn't fight in WWI.


EDIT: Another point of interest, Mussolini was a socialist originally, but he was kicked out of the party because of his support of Italian entry into World War I.

 

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
Another point of interest, Mussolini was a socialist originally, but he was kicked out of the party because of his support of Italian entry into World War I.

He was a social-republican: after sept 8 he created the RSI (Social republic of Italy) in contrast to the Italian kingdom... More of the dictators become to left and died in right (Hitler was a national-socialist)... strange the hystory, no?

Fascism was called in this mode becuase Mussolini used the glory of Rome in his propaganda: the fascio was an arm used by pretorian guard on the roman republic.

 

[LouLong]

Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
Yeah, fascism started in Italy and was already well established before Hitler ever came to power.


I think you're confusing them with Spain where fascism would probably not have taken hold if it weren't for German support.

Btw, IIRC, Portugal didn't fight in WWI.


EDIT: Another point of interest, Mussolini was a socialist originally, but he was kicked out of the party because of his support of Italian entry into World War I.

Portugal did fight. It joined in 1917 along the US with a bunch of other "small" countries IIRC.

Yep, Mussolini was even the chief editor of "Avanti" the socialist newspaper before being excluded for nationalism and creating his own paper (il popolo d'Italia).
Nazism is actually National Socialism too, taking care of the people (in a way): basic needs + tight control in multiple organizations.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Originally posted by Rufus T.Firefly


He was a social-republican: after sept 8 he created the RSI (Social republic of Italy) in contrast to the Italian kingdom... More of the dictators become to left and died in right (Hitler was a national-socialist)... strange the hystory, no?

Fascism was called in this mode becuase Mussolini used the glory of Rome in his propaganda: the fascio was an arm used by pretorian guard on the roman republic.

National-socialism is Nazism, btw.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Lou, I just checked... we're both wrong. Germany declared war on Portugal in 1916 after Portugal seized German merchant ships seeking refuge in their harbors.


Also, they don't exactly have a glowing success rate... 50,000 men were sent to the Western Front in 1917. In April 1918, the Germans shelled them heavily during their offensive, they were routed and 6,000 men were taken prisoner and a 3 1/2 mile gap was punched through the British lines.

 

[Hunter]

Thanks guys (and any more help will be apreciated )

I also have added some Euro nations that were not in WW1 but I have worked them in since I have writen a long back story for the start of the game. It is a interesting bit of history based fiction .

 

[LouLong]

Sure, they were definitely a side dish (for the Germans). Mostly symbolic help (of course not that symbolic for the poor guys who died), like Latin American countries, etc... whose help was mostly in prohibiting trade with Germany.

 

[LouLong]

Originally posted by Hunter
Thanks guys (and any more help will be apreciated )

I also have added some Euro nations that were not in WW1 but I have worked them in since I have writen a long back story for the start of the game. It is a interesting bit of history based fiction .

Sure, you can give the names and we sure ca help you (I can at least for leaders but count me out for heroes ).

 

[Dom Pedro II]

I'd be interested to hear the back story, Hunter... it might help us help you. After all, I think if the war had gone on longer, there could have been more revolutions by more strong-arm leaders. Some of these real-world leaders people have given might not have been chosen in preference to people with a little more, shall we say grit? Anyway, might help if we knew the plot...

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Here actually, is an interesting article on the government of Sidonio Pais who overthrew the old government in 1917. He appears to embrace a lot of the principles fascism would later adopt... he was ultimately assasinated and thus his impact was minimized, but it may have meant a much different political direction for Portugal had the war continued.


Sidonio Pais


EDIT: Also, as far as military leaders, Gomes da Costa was the commander of the Portuguese Expeditionary Force to France in 1917. As explained by LouLong, he later overthrows the republic in '26.



ALSO in addition to that, edit again .... The Portuguese Expeditionary Force was somewhat poorly trained and very poorly equipped due to lack of equipment and rather tropical uniforms. The Portuguese did have some very modern equipment, but it was all in the one place Portugal needed the most military: Africa. And in fact, the Germans and Portuguese did clash in Africa even before the declaration of war. I dunno what type of map you're using, so I don't know if that's of any value.

 

[LouLong]

Not so sure there would have been "strong" coup d'etats. The situation had reached it is true a point where people could have not kept on like that for long (both parties were so exhausted the US could have come by themselves and destroy either one easily) but it is interesting to notice the democratic states faired better than the authoritarian ones, which was a surprise to most (including many extreme enti-republicans in France who admitted after 1918 the Republic had succeeded in defending the patry (is that the English word).
The coup d'etat in Germany was made by a republic. In Russia by (at the beginning) representatives of the people (Douma before the communists got rid of the "bourgeois" KD). So democratic powers showed a certain strength in that conflict.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

You make a good case, Lou. I, personally, don't see any way the war could have gone on longer than mid-1919.

The only thing I could foresee would be an early German victory in 1914, the cession of some French territory, maybe the annexation of perhaps Belgium, and then the resuming of hostilities at a later point. But not just one long drawn out war. Total war cannot go on for that long.

There could be a number of coups to bring down monarchist and dictatorial regimes in favor of democracies and (almost certainly along with that) sueing for peace. In a world where there was no victory for the Allies, that would likely be the case, you are right. Unless, in some cases, the democratic governments were seen as bunglers and the military decided to intervene to bring this thing to a close faster.

Now, if we have a quick end to the war in 1914-15, you may see the pendulum swing the other way as strong-arm groups, disappointed by the government's failure to produce victory, take control. Or it may even happen before then... if Paris were threatened and the democratic government was ready to capitulate, there may have been a coup by the military to keep it going...

 

[Hunter]

I will post my back-story tonight

But one of the more important elements to the wars continuation in my game was that the Spanish Flu hit harder than in real life. However it is dificult to explane.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

God... a continuation of war AND a harder Spanish influenza?? The whole European theater would be two guys shooting at each other with artillery!

 

[Hunter]

Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
God... a continuation of war AND a harder Spanish influenza?? The whole European theater would be two guys shooting at each other with artillery!

 

[Androrc]

Originally posted by LouLong
Not so sure there would have been "strong" coup d'etats. The situation had reached it is true a point where people could have not kept on like that for long (both parties were so exhausted the US could have come by themselves and destroy either one easily)

I don't think the US could destroy easily one of the two parties...At least not with the force they sent. Also, if they had entered on germany's side it would have to face Britain's tanks. Also, when the US entered the war, Britain and France were already winning the war. It only shortened it. Those 2 countries won the war.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Let's not forget that those two countries won the war thanks to billions of dollars from American banks. Not to mention war materials sent and assembled in Britain. Had it not been for these things, the Allies would likely have had to sue for peace.

EDIT: I would also like to note that although Germany and Austria capitulated, their defeat was nothing like 1945. In 1945, Germany was completely overrun... the Allies in 1918 had only barely penetrated the German borders.

The USA did not, alone or with allies, in fact destroy either side.