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1UPT: lets end the discussion here. what do you want?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Deep_Blue, Oct 15, 2010.

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1UPT: lets end the discussion here. what do you want?

  1. 1UPT but with better AI

    172 vote(s)
    54.3%
  2. Unlimited Stacks (as in CIV4)

    13 vote(s)
    4.1%
  3. Limited Stacks (example: 6 units per stack)

    32 vote(s)
    10.1%
  4. Unlimited Stacks for non-combat units only (example: worker)

    24 vote(s)
    7.6%
  5. Limited Stacks for combat units + unlimited Stacks for non-combat units

    36 vote(s)
    11.4%
  6. Unlimited Stack on strategic map + seperate tactical map with 1UPT

    17 vote(s)
    5.4%
  7. Something else

    23 vote(s)
    7.3%
  1. AlpsStranger

    AlpsStranger Jump jump on the tiger!

    Joined:
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    5,820
    I won't give up on 1upT. They must find a way to teach the AI how to use it.

    On the other hand there is no good reason not to allow civilian units to stack.

    A suggestion a friend of mine had may work as well. Allow civilian units to stack (but not combine labor) and in addition to this allow military units to "pack up" for long rage movement. They would be vulnerable to instant destruction as civilian units, but they could move cross-country much more easily. It should take a turn to pack and a turn to unpack. They should have a -75% combat penalty the turn they unpack to prevent any tactics from evolving around packed units.

    They could use little baggage trains in early eras and military trucks in later eras to represent packed units.
     
  2. da6d

    da6d Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2010
    Messages:
    24
    another thing, and this needs to be in an actual patch:

    let two units that both have adequate movement "swap places" as a special option - maybe you'd have to shift-click the two units to swap, in order to ensure they both have adequate movement and avoid stacking. But seriously, the idea of a rolling front is one of the oldest military concepts around, sad that it's so hard to execute in the current 1upt setup. Triplex Acies, anybody?
     
  3. da6d

    da6d Chieftain

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    I'm going to assume we were typing our messages at the same time, but how funny that we'd both suggest essentially the same thing within moments of each other...:lol:
     
  4. Surgeon

    Surgeon Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    154
    1upt by a landslide . Good to see.
     
  5. Sonereal

    Sonereal ♫We got the guillotine♫ Supporter

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    That's already included, innit?
     
  6. da6d

    da6d Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2010
    Messages:
    24
    probably, I may just be daft...
     
  7. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

    Joined:
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    Forget the AI (and making a good war AI is an extremely difficult task! It will probably be many years before we see a good one). 1UPT just doesn't work with the economy system of CIV. By that I mean the system where production comes from cities, which work tiles. As your empire grows, production grows, which means army sizes grow. However, the front line doesn't get any bigger, it's still a line. This means that even in the midaeval era things start getting congested, and in the modern era EVERY SINGLE TILE gets covered with a unit. There's no tactics there, it's just tedious unit spam.

    I hate to sound elitist here, but think the reason so many people still like 1UPT is because they haven't really figured out the economy/building part of this game yet. If you're still learning that, and playing on low leves, 1UPT is OK because both you and the AI will have a really small army of like 4-8 units. (it's OK for ancient era rushes, too). However, once you learn more about the system, and move up to immortal/deity, you'll find that both you and the AI have at least 20units in the army, trying to squeeze into a front line of only 5 hexes, and the system totally breaks down.
     
  8. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

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    Pictures will show this better than words. Civ V warfare was explicitly modeled after panzer general, right? So let's compare the two games. Here's England in PG, with the flags representing units:
    Spoiler :



    and here it is in a standard size map of Civ V:
    Spoiler :


    In PG, England is about 500 hexes. That's enough room for very large armies to maneuver around in (and even so, things get pretty congested when you're fighting over london). In Civ V, England is only 6 hexes! What am I supposed to do there? That's not even enough room to build a proper city! The English channel is only 4 hexes and one hex wide, so you can shoot across it with archers. Poor Italy has it worst though- only 2 hexes for the Italian peninsula! And the mediterranean is only 1 tile wide!

    Now that's an earth map, but the same sort of problems happen on any map I play. Tight spaces, bottlenecks, absolutely no room to maneuver. Civ V warfare is just a traffic jam.
     
  9. Deep_Blue

    Deep_Blue Knight

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2005
    Messages:
    750
    I was trying to explain this to 1UPT fans in other threads but they still dont see the big picture.

    1UPT reuqires much more room, and in cases of small area like England or Italy (on world map) you will be limited with troops because you are limited in hexes. for me this leads to a broken 1UPT system where the game will be unbalanced with huge advantage for civilizations with bigger land area.

    in civ 4 even if you start at an isolated small island you still have a chance to expand by creating more troops and conqueing new lands, but now if you start on a small island you will be limited to 3 units (as example).
     
  10. JudgeDeath

    JudgeDeath Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2005
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    191
    Interesting point, although Civ V isn't trying to be PG. What happens when you play it on a larger map to the number of hexes?
     
  11. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    Oct 12, 2005
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    Civ 5 is trying to be PG, they said themselves they are basing the combat model directly after PG.
     
  12. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    Something else.

    I want unlimited stacks. But not how they were in Civ4, and not with an added tactical layer. I simply want the ability to create unlimited stacks, with the price to pay for doing so being severe penalties, whether they be regarding costs, combat modifiers or collateral damage. Through a combination of different penalties, with the effect of placing an exponential penalty on stacks, you can both allow the player a full range of strategic options, whilst solving the dominance power of SODs as they were. I fail to see a problem with this solution.
     
  13. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    Firaxis even implemented a feature in Civ 3 which does something what you describe Camikaze; they had a bombardment feature that potentially could halve the defense of all units in a stack. They never actually had this in the original game, but it is available thanks to modders. Although simplistic, I agree that with stacks or even limited stacks, there are far more ways to implement civ type combat.

    PG combat works if it is done properly, as pi-r8 described very well above.
     
  14. lschnarch

    lschnarch Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2010
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    this seems to be a strong argument for avoiding 1upt, no?

    This is already implemented, although (what a surprise! :lol:) not working well.
    If you want to swap two units, try to move unit A over unit B. Due to reasons which I haven't identified yet, in most cases you will see a red dot indicating that this wouldn't be possible. Release the mouse button, and nothing has changed.
    Now, try to move unit B over unit A, and *drumroll* you will see a grey spot, indicating that the swapping would work. Release the mouse button and ... voilá, both units swap places.

    The larger the map (= scale increased) the better the 1upt works.
    The solution seems to be clear: make maps bigger and bigger, and the restrictions to 1upt should become less and less.

    Unfortunately, Firaxis has not understood this, therefore, nothing else changes with increasing map sizes.
    City radius and distance stay the same, distributing tile features (forest, jungle, whatever) stays the same, and so on.

    For an tolerable scale of 1upt combat the maps should be at least 4 times bigger than the current huge maps. But than the scaling of the city placements would be even more distorted.

    Conclusing: the current implementation of 1upt does not work for the rest of the current implementation of Civ0.V.
    This is sad, since I am a big fan of 1upt-based hex games (PG, PG2 being to of my favourites of the old days), but nevertheless, it is unfortunately just true.
     
  15. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

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    pi-r8:

    Having played PG, I'm pretty sure that Civ V warfare was quite explicitly NOT modeled after PG, but informed by or inspired by PG. Hex-based scale in Civ V dictates that the armies be small because the spaces are small. This is actually true. It's more reminiscent of the smaller scale scenarios in PG, IIRC.
     
  16. falconne

    falconne meep

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    Option 6 should be "Limited stacks". It won't work with unlimited stacks and no game that separates the tactical combat uses unlimited stacks.
     
  17. Jediron

    Jediron Prince

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    Yes. Except they have don that by crippling the production for units, and thks for all the "powerups" you get while playing; you still end up with a carpet of doom. If you look at PG maps, there is plenty of room for manouvring; with more or less units. Where is that to be seen in CIV 5 ? Often you are manouvering in a cramped area, due to the nature of the CIV 5 (random)maps. You are fighting the elements, where there should be none.
     
  18. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

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    Jediron:

    The area wouldn't be cramped if the AI weren't receiving such incredibly large bonuses. Certainly, I don't see Carpets of Doom on King, and I don't expect to see them on Emperor.

    The fault is not a failure of the 1UPT concept, but a failure of the basic Civ paradigm of making the AI harder by giving it more bonuses. It "worked" in the earlier Civs, but that was only because the more skilled players of those games apparently don't mind limitless Stacks of Doom that suicided themselves as much as Carpets of Doom that did the exact same thing.
     
  19. katipunero

    katipunero Prince

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    correct me if i'm wrong, but i seem to recall that in pg, the number and type of units are given at the start of the game. in other words, unlike civ, you cannot spam at will. no matter how big or small the scenario is you'll have just enough units in pg to get the job done.
     
  20. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

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    katipunero:

    Generally, you had more. Not a lot more, but the leeway was especially generous in the early goings. As you get later in the game, the limiting factor isn't units, but time. You have to hit the victory condition quickly, and slogging through enemies generally didn't work, no matter how efficient your method was.

    You can't spam at will in Civ V, either. Unit maintenance is high and units are expensive in terms of gold and hammers. The common complaint you'll see is that Civ V doesn't have enough hammers to actually build any units whatosever - not even one.
     

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