[Vote] (2-05) Reveal Iron Earlier At Mining Instead Of Bronze Working

[Legen]

Voting Instructions
Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" if you'd be okay if this proposal was implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if this proposal wasn't implemented.

You can vote for both options, which is equivalent to saying "I'm fine either way", but adds to the required quorum of 10 votes in favor.

All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.

VP Congress: Session 2, Proposal 5
Proposal:

Iron is revealed at the Mining technology, instead of the current Bronze Working tech.

Rationale:

Iron is currently the only Ancient Era resource that is revealed at the second tech column of this era. Every other resource is revealed at one of the technologies in the first column instead, with Mining being the only first column tech that reveals nothing. As such, you need to commit almost triple the time needed to reveal Iron compared to any other Ancient Era resource; not only you need to research Mining in the first column (which, again, reveals nothing), researching a tech at the second column costs almost twice as much.

Spoiler The Ancient Era tech tree, patch 2.7.3 :

This has implications regarding settling. Anyone playing with a civilization or pantheon that needs to prioritize Iron (e.g. Rome, Earth Mother) will have a particularly awkward time securing its key resource compared to those that prioritize anything else. Moreover, that city placement will not be as informed of surrounding resources than a city from someone that can prioritize the first column techs over Bronze Working. While the former player will only have Iron revealed, the latter player can have resources revealed by practically three technologies from the first column instead, enjoying a greater abundance of information and bonus yields.

Thematically, there's also the matter that the civilopedia entry for Mining actually references iron ("The earliest mined elements include copper, iron, diamonds, gold, silver, salt and coal."). Compare to the entry for Bronze Working, which doesn't reference iron at all. Their current entry in VP is the same in the vanilla civ V, so the links shown are just as relevant for this subject. And from them, I suspect that the Iron reveal placement at Bronze working is mainly a leftover from vanilla that hasn't been paid attention to in VP yet; as far as I can remember, there was no particular reason stated during VP's development for its current placement.

 

[cidk2000]

This is an excellent proposal, only minor issues is that the unit used for these swordsman is far away the only uses at mining is to sell it to other civs

 

[ma_kuh]

It also lets you build mines in places you might otherwise not be able to, but that's a bit niche. Having nothing to spend iron on, even at Bronze Working can be annoying if you are trying to get into the top-line techs.

 

[CppMaster]

Also, iron gives production

 

[CrazyG]

I worry this makes bronzeworking an even worse tech. Not finding iron is one of the punishments for greedy top tech strategies IMO

 

[KlHannibal2]

This is an excellent proposal, only minor issues is that the unit used for these swordsman is far away the only uses at mining is to sell it to other civs

It also gives more yields on the tile.

 

[KlHannibal2]

I worry this makes bronzeworking an even worse tech. Not finding iron is one of the punishments for greedy top tech strategies IMO

With more barbs spawning atm, spearmen could be more valuable than before.

 

[Stalker0]

With more barbs spawning atm, spearmen could be more valuable than before.

To me the reason bronze working is often ignored if because of wonders. I find that I can usually squeeze in mining into my build orders and still get some key classical wonders, but if I go bronze working that goes by the way side. So a commitment to bronze working is effectively a commitment to a very different tech path. Doesn't mean its a bad path, but I can't just go bronze working without a major shift in the gameplan.

 

[KlHannibal2]

To me the reason iron working is often ignored if because of wonders. I find that I can usually squeeze in mining into my build orders and still get some key classical wonders, but if I go iron working that goes by the way side. So a commitment to iron working is effectively a commitment to a very different tech path. Doesn't mean its a bad path, but I can't just go iron working without a major shift in the gameplan.

Do you mean iron working or bronze working?

 

[Stalker0]

Do you mean iron working or bronze working?

doh meant bronze working. updated the post.

 

[Zakuzelo]

With more barbs spawning atm, spearmen could be more valuable than before.

Spearmen don't mean much against barbarians. Spearmen have 11 CS, warriors have 8 with a 33% bonus against barbs, so 10.64. The difference is so negligible it might as well not exist outside of cavalry. If anything warriors are better than spears against barbs because they cost less.

 

[azum4roll]

Spearman is actually 12CS. Any promotion on top also means more for a higher base CS. They also have Formation I.

 

[Zakuzelo]

Spearman is actually 12CS. Any promotion on top also means more for a higher base CS. They also have Formation I.

That 12CS bit made me recheck a bunch of stuff and yes, nevermind, spears are better. Usually a difference of 2-3CS. I still wouldn't call that worth the incredibly valuable early hammers/gold, though.

 

[Stalker0]

That 12CS bit made me recheck a bunch of stuff and yes, nevermind, spears are better. Usually a difference of 2-3CS. I still wouldn't call that worth the incredibly valuable early hammers/gold, though.

Once barbs turn into spearman though, your warriors due struggle to compete

 

[rkkn]

even with spears at 12 cs now, I still don't upgrade warriors until later unless I am fighting non-barbarians or just have a huge excess of gold. just not a good use of gold. I'm way better off buying an extra unit (or investing in a building) than upgrading my 3 warriors to spears. and I actually get annoyed when I realize I can't produce warriors anymore and have to make spears. they are so much less cost efficient. It's rare, but I do occasionally actively avoid researching bronze working for a bit to keep the ability to build warriors

 

[N.Core]

I sponsor this, just a PrereqTech change

 

[Recursive]

Proposal sponsored by N.Core.

 

[JamesNinelives]

It makes to me that iron is revealed later. It's a powerful resource, and thematically it might reasonably require more research to learn how to use.

I don't have strong feelings on the matter, just that I don't have an issue with the way things are now.

 

[pineappledan]

It looks like this is going to pass, but… uuuugh. This is a step back no matter how you slice it.

You need to think of something else to put on bronze working. A unit, and wonder, and a bonus to chopping is not going to cut it.

You break it; you buy it. Bronze working wasn’t good before, but you found a new bottom, and you volunteered yourself to fix it.

 

[Stalker0]

And from them, I suspect that the Iron reveal placement at Bronze working is mainly a leftover from vanilla that hasn't been paid attention to in VP yet; as far as I can remember, there was no particular reason stated during VP's development for its current placement.

I can definitely say this is not correct, in fact the iron placement on BW has been debated several times over the many years of the mod. Its been later and earlier, ultimately settling in on BW.