(2-13c) Counterproposal: Give players Galleys and make them weaker

[rkkn]

Counterproposal to: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/2-17-proposal-early-naval-unit-rework.680296/

Galley unlocked at Pottery
55 , 3 , 9

Barbarian Galley: 8


This is a simpler proposal with no changes to Triremes.
The problem being addressed here is that barbarians can swarm early cities with galleys or keep players from exploring islands. I think removing galleys entirely (counterproposal c) is far too heavy-handed. The problem is simply that players can't really do anything about them. They are too tanky to kill with archers, and players have no boats of their own. So the solution is to just add counterplay: The lowered combat strength lets archers do significant damage to them (and makes them less deadly to embarked units). Allowing players to build them---and at an early tech---gives players a more proactive way to hunt them down. The early tech also doesn't prevent barbarians from spawning them. Also less move so they are not as good at running away at low health, and not dramatically better at exploring than an embarked scout.

 

[Tekamthi]

just have it available at start of game, are the galleys made out of clay? c'mon

 

[pineappledan]

Not a fan of removing sailboats from Sailing

The other proposal is to have a boat at fishing (galley), one at sailing (dromon), and one at philosophy (trireme), but ok. This characterizes it as taking all the boats away.

Pottery is too early to ask players to start splitting their unit production between naval and ground. The barb galley will be delayed to a better timing if unlocked at fishing. For context, the barb galley is being auto-unlocked at 20 turns right now.

 

[Stalker0]

Pottery is too early to ask players to start splitting their unit production between naval and ground.

Agreed. Hell even with triremes its hard to find enough hammers to commit to more than 1 of them.

 

[rkkn]

Pottery is too early to ask players to start splitting their unit production between naval and ground. The barb galley will be delayed to a better timing if unlocked at fishing. For context, the barb galley is being auto-unlocked at 20 turns right now.

This proposal's aim is to solve the problem without changing the barbarian spawn timings.

The idea there is to give players the tools to deal with it and not change anything else. Because I don't think it's an inherently bad thing for barbarians to have boats early. In fact I think it's good. I like the recent changes to barbarians and like that they are a presence early and often, so I don't want to remove them from the early game.

Also, with galley at fishing you have this phase where players have embarked units but barbarians can't have boats, since barbarians always lag behind in tech. They've gotta wait for the players with a landlocked capital who don't care at all about fishing to finally research fishing. So early water exploration has zero danger.

too early to ask players to start splitting their unit production between naval and ground

If you're land focused, you can just shoot them with your ranged units. You should not need to make the boat unless you actually want a boat. Part of the idea behind the proposal is enabling land units to deal with barbarian boats (is 8 CS still too much?).
And if you have a water heavy start, you don't want many land units anyway and would rather have boats.

But all that said, it's possible that 55p is too much. I was thinking that it might be, but then thought that maybe the ability to get into the water before fishing might be too strong to have it cheaper. Perhaps it's not, and the cost should indeed be lower.
Could give it less cost (45?) and lower CS to 8 and 7 for barbs. Or 8 for both and give it brute force promotion like what warriors have. Or even leave it at 9 and still with brute force so that a single boat easily survives running into two barbarian boats. Probably want to keep the cost higher for that, though.

just have it available at start of game, are the galleys made out of clay? c'mon

This is the tech that reveals fish, so I think it's appropriate enough.
But maybe available at game start would be better. An analog to warrior. But imo it's weird for boats to be available with zero tech investment. I think the barrier should be very low but nonzero.

The other proposal is to have a boat at fishing (galley), one at sailing (dromon), and one at philosophy (trireme), but ok. This characterizes it as taking all the boats away.

true. there would still be one sailboat there

 

[BaldSamson]

just have it available at start of game, are the galleys made out of clay? c'mon

+1 from me.

I'm not sure on the costs, but I have enjoyed getting beat up on by the barbarian galleys this version, and just wish I had any naval unit to fight back with.

 

[youngsteve]

The other proposal is to have a boat at fishing (galley), one at sailing (dromon), and one at philosophy (trireme), but ok. This characterizes it as taking all the boats away.

Pottery is too early to ask players to start splitting their unit production between naval and ground. The barb galley will be delayed to a better timing if unlocked at fishing. For context, the barb galley is being auto-unlocked at 20 turns right now.

Do what you do with other early units like Warriors & Slingers, buy them. Players think nothing of buying a more expensive worker, but not an early sea vessal. Particularly with barbs everywhere, I don't build for ages.

 

[Stalker0]

Players think nothing of buying a more expensive worker, but not an early sea vessal.

That's because buying an early worker has insanely good value. Having improved terrain versus having no improved terrain is one of the biggest difference makers in the success of a city, its literally game changing. Also gold spent on workers versus production is pretty efficient (straight 2 gold per 1 hammer), most military units have a weaker return. So there are very good reasons to buy workers over sea vessels.

 

[youngsteve]

That's because buying an early worker has insanely good value. Having improved terrain versus having no improved terrain is one of the biggest difference makers in the success of a city, its literally game changing. Also gold spent on workers versus production is pretty efficient (straight 2 gold per 1 hammer), most military units have a weaker return. So there are very good reasons to buy workers over sea vessels.

Not if you are playing with raging barbs it isn't

 

[nekokon]

I think having galley unlocked from the start just mean the play can make use of them if needed, and doesn't mean they have to do so early (and split the production to both land and naval).
It would certainly diminish the advantage of sea faring civs though, as other civs can now explore the coast a lot earlier than usual.

 

[Stalker0]

Not if you are playing with raging barbs it isn't

Or you just remove galleys and solve the problem, there’s no reason barbs have to have them

 

[rkkn]

I guess I'll sponsor this. It's pretty trivial.

 

[Recursive]

Proposal sponsored by rkkn.