[Vote] (2-21) (REVOTE) Proposal: Remove Gold Bonus from Chanceries and make Bonuses for CS Friends and CS Allies stack

Approval Vote for Proposal #21 (instructions below)


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Stalker0

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I have amended the proposal and added a change to wire services to make the bonuses stack.


@Stalker0 if you prefer this idea, feel free to make a counterproposal. The same applies to anyone who prefers the idea of capping yields.

I will sponsor this proposal and all counterproposals (within scope) that will be made to it.
I don't actually want a change to the building:)
 

DeAnno

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How would this affect Germany? IIRC it uses the same language and also doesn't give the friend and ally bonus at the same time, it would be confusing if that remained the old way.
 

axatin

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True. What would you think about +2 Science for Friends, +2 Culture for Allies for Germany? Would that be too strong?
Also, I would suggest that the Scrivener's Office give +1 Food per Friend and (additionally) +1 Faith per Ally. It is a slight buff, but as the building can be built only once I think it's fine.
 

pineappledan

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Not a big fan of changing how the buildings work.

[yield1] for friend and [yield2] for ally is already as clear as the game can reasonably make it. If people presume a mechanic works differently than how it is described then that's no reason to change it. Let's not start making balance changes based solely on poor reading comprehension.

If Chanceries etc. give too many yields then that is another matter, but I don't think they do. They're fine as is.
 

hokath

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If people presume a mechanic works differently than how it is described then that's no reason to change it. Let's not start making balance changes based solely on poor reading comprehension.
strong disagree from me
 

rkkn

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It would be bad to change this and not change Germany's UA when they use the same language. It would be inconsistent

that said, the language needs to be made less ambiguous regardless


[yield1] for friend and [yield2] for ally is already as clear as the game can reasonably make it. If people presume a mechanic works differently than how it is described then that's no reason to change it. Let's not start making balance changes based solely on poor reading comprehension.
this has nothing at all to do with reading comprehension. The language is simply not clear.
It's perfectly reasonable to assume that allies are also considered friends. Ally is a more advanced state along the same spectrum. It's not a side grade. Saying that this is not the case feels a bit like... well, as an example, asking someone "Hey, you got a dollar?" and getting "No" as the answer because they have two dollars.
 

Stalker0

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It would be bad to change this and not change Germany's UA when they use the same language. It would be inconsistent

that said, the language needs to be made less ambiguous regardless



this has nothing at all to do with reading comprehension. The language is simply not clear.
It's perfectly reasonable to assume that allies are also considered friends. Ally is a more advanced state along the same spectrum. It's not a side grade. Saying that this is not the case feels a bit like... well, as an example, asking someone "Hey, you got a dollar?" and getting "No" as the answer because they have two dollars.
I do agree with this. At a minimum, an update to the tooltips for chancery and wire service is warranted.
that said, pdans point about reading comprehension vs balance is very valid. If you are voting for this to remove confusion that is a bad reason, far simplier to just clean up the tooltips. The only reason to vote for this is you really want to see the building adjusted
 

Rekk

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It would be bad to change this and not change Germany's UA when they use the same language. It would be inconsistent

that said, the language needs to be made less ambiguous regardless



this has nothing at all to do with reading comprehension. The language is simply not clear.
It's perfectly reasonable to assume that allies are also considered friends. Ally is a more advanced state along the same spectrum. It's not a side grade. Saying that this is not the case feels a bit like... well, as an example, asking someone "Hey, you got a dollar?" and getting "No" as the answer because they have two dollars.
The connotations of being a friend with a city state vs being an ally of that city state has not changed since vanilla. You don't get the bonus of being a friend  and an ally, even with basic rewards.
 

Stalker0

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The connotations of being a friend with a city state vs being an ally of that city state has not changed since vanilla. You don't get the bonus of being a friend  and an ally, even with basic rewards.
I can tell you that I’ve had enough people go “wait really that’s how chanceries work” when I explain it to them over the years that yes…the language is confusing. A tooltip update at minimum is 100% warranted.
 

axatin

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Proposal amended: Changes to Germany's UI and to the Scrivener's Office included.

The connotations of being a friend with a city state vs being an ally of that city state has not changed since vanilla. You don't get the bonus of being a friend  and an ally, even with basic rewards.
In vanilla, the bonuses for allies are always stronger than the bonuses for friends, and as rkkn already said, being allies is a stronger state than being friends. So it's obviously implied that allies gives some bonuses in addition to the friendship bonuses, which also stay active.

Giving bonuses for friends while not giving them for allies is a very counter-intuitive concept, no matter how it's described.
 

Rekk

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So it's obviously implied that allies gives some bonuses in addition to the friendship bonuses, which also stay active.
When it says eg. you gain 2 culture for being friends with a CS, and 10 culture for being allies, it is understood that allies are not receiving 12 culture.
 
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ma_kuh

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I think it's highly game-dependent whether that's the case, and depending on your history of games it's either intuitive or unintuitive.

Another classic example is "target ally" effects. Are you your own ally? You're on your own team. But the literal definition of an ally is another person. Reasonable interpretations on both sides say you either can or cannot target yourself with such an effect.

I don't think it's so unclear that you can't figure out that gaining allyship negates friendship, at least as far as bonuses go, but you can also make it unambiguous:
"for each CS friend for each non-ally CS friend"
 

CppMaster

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ehh, just the fact that we have that discussion means that it's not totally obvious. No reason to delve into it more. The description needs to change if we don't want balance changes, because why to not make it more clear? Simply "instead" would to the work.
 

axatin

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yes, okay, I agree that there are different possible interpretations. In any case, a rewording would we good if the current system is kept.

But the problem I have with the current implementation is not just the description, it's also related to gameplay. In some cases, the bonuses for friends may be seen as more attractive as the bonuses for allies (for example when playing as Germany and going for Science Victory). It is then preferable to keep CS relations on the intermediate level of only friendship and preventing alliances, and it feels strange to me to have a situation where it's incentivized to not complete CS quests.
 

rkkn

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yes, germany's situation is very strange with the bonus making a side-grade instead of an upgrade. I agree that this should be rectified. Should be on a different proposal though if we are gonna go with only clarifying the wording
 

Recursive

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Proposal sponsored by axatin.
 

pineappledan

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The OP ought to mention that Germany's yields from friends/allies scale with era.

This proposal is going to make Germany's UA way stronger.

Looks like a Trojan horse to greatly increase Germany's UA.
 
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Recursive

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The OP ought to mention that Germany's yields from friends/allies scale with era.

This proposal is going to make Germany's UA way stronger.

It's like you guys are trying to vote Germany's UA be doubled in power as a sort of afterthought.
I added this to the OP and reset the vote count.
 

axatin

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The main intention of the proposal is to make the yields from friends and allies stack. If the German UA becomes too strong as a side-effect, it can be adjusted during ratification
 
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