[Vote] (2-25) Weaken Orders Proposals

[Recursive]

Voting Instructions
Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" for every proposal you'd be okay with if it were implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if these proposals weren't implemented. You can vote for any number of options.

All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.

VP Congress: Session 2, Proposal 25
Discussion Thread: (2-25) Proposal: weaken the religious building Order
Proposer: @alchx
Sponsor: @axatin

Proposal Details
Currently building Orders in every city in a wide empire generates an insane amount of faith for unit kills. With each era, the effect of these buildings becomes stronger, although in reality the buildings of the early eras should reduce their influence on cities and empires.

The screenshot is not very informative, but will give a rough idea of the scale of the empire. As a result, about 30 cities are under direct control. This allows you to get approximately 8k faith in one turn by killing enemy units in an all-out war, each against all the rest. Together with Zealotry, you can not bother with the production of ground units and aircraft at all, but simply produce ships.

I don't want to introduce any coefficients or limit that only 4 Orders at most can generate faith, because the possibility of a wide game should remain and the player should be compensated in it for the higher prices of science and policies.

I suggest that each Order building gives a bonus only 1 time per turn for the first kill. And it gave a fixed amount, so that the player did not have to kill an expensive unit first, and then cheap ones.

Something like +8 faith in the early era. +16 next, +24(+32) next.

Moderator Action: Clarification: Proposal is for the Order to award +8 Faith, scaling with era, applied only once per turn instead of every time a unit is killed.

Spoiler :

VP Congress: Session 2, Proposal 25a
Discussion Thread: (2-25a) Counterproposal: Order Follower Belief Split
Proposer: @pineappledan
Sponsor: @pineappledan

Proposal Details
Problems:
- Orders are too strong.
- We don't have enough beliefs for enough religions to support larger games
- There are no religious beliefs representing new world religions

Solution: split Orders into 2 different UBs

Proposal:

Orders

23​

3City Defense​

+10%City Bombard Strength​

+25% Pressure of Religious Majority emanating from this city​

+10% resistance to conversion (will be removed if (2-14) Proposal: Remove religious resistance from religious buildings passes)​

Military Land Units in this city gain the 'Morale' promotion​

Gain Faith equal to 10% of the Production cost of units built in this City​

Gain Production equal to 10% of the cost of Faith purchases in this City​

-1Unhappiness from / Distress​

Teocalli

200 cost​

2​

1Flat Supply​

+25% Pressure of Religious Majority emanating from this city​

+10% resistance to conversion (will be removed if (2-14) Proposal: Remove religious resistance from religious buildings passes)​

+15 XP for Military units produced in this city.​

+3 Faith in this City when you kill a unit on Empire​

-1Unhappiness from / Distress​

 

[pineappledan]

I think an option to implement both of these proposals together is possible. The teocalli could give its yields on kills as a 1-time bonus per turn. I wouldn’t actually want that, but these two changes are not necessarily exclusive.

 

[alchx]

If the kill bonus from Teocalli is fixed across epochs (always 3), then I don't see anything wrong with each building giving a bonus for each kill.
The main imbalance of Orders is that they give too much faith due to scaling. The building itself is strong as it gives +15xp.
Without scaling, the value of a building will decrease over time, as it should.
But I would remove the +1 supply cap - in practice, this means that the more cities the player has, the larger the army, regardless of the population.

 

[pineappledan]

As I said in other threads, I don’t know if 8 per kill once per turn will actually result in less faith overall. However, it will definitely create a weird incentive for players to kill 1 unit — and only 1 unit — each turn. This incentivized dragging wars out and bleeding opponents, or abusing late barb spawns for farmed kills.

 

[DeAnno]

I agree the problem with Orders (or whatever their successor) is the era scaling, if you can remove that somehow it's fixed. If it can't be removed, then I think better to drop the mechanic altogether tbh.

 

[Rekk]

We can make it like Acropolis too, where it only gives faith to the city that built the be unit that made the kill.

 

[rkkn]

faith tends to scale wide, so I think it's fine. would cut the era scaling instead. bump it a bit (5? 8?) and have no era scaling. leaving it as a uniquely wide-scaling on-kill yield

 

[pineappledan]

I would just cut lower it to 2, scaling with era, and see if people still think it’s too much faith before creating the burden of new code.

It’s my opinion that this issue is smaller than people think it is. Order’s faith on kills is just highly visible, with a big pop-up in all your cities, and can trigger multiple times in a major turn, especially late. When Orders are going off, players notice.l; what they do not notice is the many, many more turns they spent with orders in every city when they weren’t killing anything.

The faith is probably a little too high, but I think people perceive this bonus is stronger than it is, because it’s a charismatic bonus.

 

[Rekk]

We can make it like Acropolis too, where it only gives faith to the city that built the be unit that made the kill.

Right, I forgot why this was an awful idea originally, since you would only need one Order (making the wonder that gets a free one much much better in comparison) for the majority of the bonus.

 

[alchx]

I would just cut lower it to 2, scaling with era, and see if people still think it’s too much faith before creating the burden of new code.

It’s my opinion that this issue is smaller than people think it is. Order’s faith on kills is just highly visible, with a big pop-up in all your cities, and can trigger multiple times in a major turn, especially late. When Orders are going off, players notice.l; what they do not notice is the many, many more turns they spent with orders in every city when they weren’t killing anything.

The faith is probably a little too high, but I think people perceive this bonus is stronger than it is, because it’s a charismatic bonus.

With a wide game and 20-30 cities with Orders in one turn, closer to the late game, there was so much faith that it allowed you to buy 3-4 units through Zealotry. Scaling across eras definitely creates an imbalance. Later units are of course more expensive, but by that time the player has many other faith generating buildings, wonders, holy sites of the Great Prophets, Reformation, strengthening of religion.

Now, with inflation of gold, I can only buy 1/3-1/2 units per turn, even in a golden age with many towns and villages.

Religion should provide about the same ratio to buy a unit through Zealotry. Or even 1/4 of the price of the average unit of the era - with the intentions of lowering inflation, gold will come to about this ratio, it seems to me ..

 

[pineappledan]

If you have 20-30 cities you are either playing on a large map size (game is balanced to standard) or you already control more than half the map. I'm not overly concerned if the orders/Teocallis are merely leveraging a game you are stomping.