(2-25a) Counterproposal: Order Follower Belief Split

[pineappledan]

Counterproposal to: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...eligious-building-order.680555/#post-16373380

Problems:
- Orders are too strong.
- We don't have enough beliefs for enough religions to support larger games
- There are no religious beliefs representing new world religions

Solution: split Orders into 2 different UBs

Proposal:

Orders

23​

3City Defense​

+10%City Bombard Strength​

+25% Pressure of Religious Majority emanating from this city​

+10% resistance to conversion​

Military Land Units in this city gain the 'Morale' promotion​

Gain Faith equal to 10% of the Production cost of units built in this City​

Gain Production equal to 10% of the cost of Faith purchases in this City​

-1Unhappiness from / Distress​

Teocalli

200 cost​

2​

1Flat Supply​

+25% Pressure of Religious Majority emanating from this city​

+10% resistance to conversion​

+15 XP for Military units produced in this city.​

+3 Faith in this City when you kill a unit on Empire​

-1Unhappiness from / Distress​

 

[alchx]

I don't like the idea that a building that takes no time to build gives an increase in Unit Supply. This is a very simple way to raise the cap on the number of military units and get rid of the penalties to production and population growth due to sagging from war wearness. It is enough to wait 7-8 turns for faith to accumulate, and just get an increase in the limit.

Toward the end of the game, this limit is not even reached by a wide empire - accordingly there are no penalties for producing anything, it makes no sense to build a lot of aircraft and missiles that do not consume Unit Supply. There is only unhappiness due to too large a population.

Maybe change to '1 unit no longer requires upkeep'. Although this will also strengthen the building somewhat through the eras, because. upkeep increases, and in this case, the empire will receive more and more free finance.

 

[Voremonger]

I would generally be in favor of splitting orders into 2 buildings where one is offensively oriented and one is defensively oriented (assuming this is your intent). However, for warmongering I find an increase in supply from religion to be mostly useless. The only point in time where I reach the supply limit is the early game where follower beliefs are unavailable anyways. Conversely, it is the tall civs fighting defensive wars that (I think) are struggling more with supply so the flat supply increase seems like it would be more useful on the defensive building.

 

[azum4roll]

Copying my comment from the Mods Repository:

Teocalli gets the good parts of current Order (faith on kill, +XP) and the new Order gets the rest + some new tools.
Instant production is hard to balance as a scaler and unlocks 1-turn wonder building by spamming missionaries. I suggest removing that part off Orders, and swap one part of Teocalli with Order.

At 10% on the order, you need thousands upon thousands of faith in order to do significant damage with this ability on the order.

It's not that hard to have tens of thousands of faith in lategame to instantly complete a wonder by purchasing a great person.

 

[hokath]

Love the XP on Teocalli, like the old CivIV Montezuma trait.

It looks like Order has a lot of stuff. The Morale promotion doesn't stack with Heroic Epic, does it? Is it necessary? Azum4roll makes a good point about the power of the faith purchase -> production ability.

 

[pineappledan]

Morale doesn’t stack. Same as current order.
Is it necessary? I don’t know, it’s on the order right now, so I didn’t see fit to just remove it. The Teocalli splits the other combat bonuses away from that.

Yes instant is tricky and sensitive. However, you don’t just have 10k in you back pocket all the time, you don’t do that without accruing some costs on timing and holding faith for that long, and you don’t necessarily have 10k worth of stuff to buy either. If you do, however, it’s probably okay that there are some rewards for that.

 

[stii]

Morale is reasonable useful, means you can make units out of all your cities and still get it. Which is what a military focused civ wants.

Orders is def too good so this seems reasonable. I can see just taking both maybe with fealty as being pretty powerful, but probably fine as you are giving up a lot here.

 

[Legen]

As a clarification, is the Orders's conversion meant to give you faith from producing civilian units, like caravans and diplomats? It currently doesn't specify that the unit has to be a military one.

 

[pineappledan]

It would work however it currently works for the ottoman’s UB

 

[azum4roll]

It would work however it currently works for the ottoman’s UB

I wonder if it works on Spanish ships.

 

[pineappledan]

I can sponsor this

 

[Recursive]

Proposal sponsored by pineappledan.