[Vote] (2-26) Proposal: Base CS Influence Decay rate on Resting Influence

[pineappledan]

Currently Siam does not benefit from Influence bonuses from first meeting.

I did not know that. So the instant influence replaces the free first meet influence rather than adding?

 

[Stalker0]

I would reduce the Siamese instant influence on meeting to 25. With the first meeting bonus you could still get 1-2 turns of friendship with everyone, or instantly DOP them for permanent friendship

ug, that is a huge nerf to siam, seriously, I think it puts Siam in a garbage tier. Those early bonuses are a huge boost to their start, its hard to understate what a big deal this actually is.

I would just keep the +40 influence, I don't think Siam is a top tier civ (just a solid middle one) so a buff here I think is fine.

 

[pineappledan]

ug, that is a huge nerf to siam, seriously, I think it puts Siam in a garbage tier. Those early bonuses are a huge boost to their start, its hard to understate what a big deal this actually is.

I would just keep the +40 influence, I don't think Siam is a top tier civ (just a solid middle one) so a buff here I think is fine.

The AI games from Vern indicated Siam was high tier. Ram consistently placed on top 10, and seems to be the 2nd most dangerous diplo civ placing just below Austria, who we are also talking about nerfing

Swapping a small one-time bonus for a small permanent one would be a good way to nudge the’ down a tiny bit

 

[Stalker0]

Swapping a small one-time bonus for a small permanent one would be a good way to nudge the’ down a tiny bit

Its really not a "nudge" though, I think you are underestimating just how many yields this often gives to a Siam player right in those very important early turns of the game. Its like pantheons, getting instant yields that early in the game is a really big deal.

I can't argue with Vern's results, though I will say having played a lot of Siam and Germany (I like diplo civs), Germany feels much stronger in human hands.

 

[pineappledan]

Siam’s instant influence not being additive does change my perception considerably. If that’s the case it could probably stay at 40.

 

[Recursive]

I did not know that. So the instant influence replaces the free first meet influence rather than adding?

Correct.

 

[azum4roll]

I'd place their resting influence at +25 and starting influence at 35.

 

[Stalker0]

I'd place their resting influence at +25 and starting influence at 35.

Which means 5 entire turns of less yields in the early game per CS. Imagine if the first building in every new city in the early game was 5 turns later than normal.

 

[Rekk]

Which means 5 entire turns of less yields in the early game per CS. Imagine if the first building in every new city in the early game was 5 turns later than normal.

but if you make a pledge of protection, then you have yields for an indefinite amount of time.

 

[Stalker0]

but if you make a pledge of protection, then you have yields for an indefinite amount of time.

and how hard is a PoP for a human to maintain on higher difficulties? Its incredibly difficult, even when I was at max supply with Greek hoplites I couldn't get one in the early game.

 

[Rekk]

and how hard is a PoP for a human to maintain on higher difficulties? Its incredibly difficult, even when I was at max supply with Greek hoplites I couldn't get one in the early game.

This seems like a problem with how Pledges of Protection are calculated.

 

[CrazyG]

This seems like a problem with how Pledges of Protection are calculated.

I've had games where I take someone's capital and make them my vassal, and they are able to pledge to protect, while I still have too low a military score.

 

[Stalker0]

This seems like a problem with how Pledges of Protection are calculated.

even so, its not like Siam is typical played as a massive military authority player, expecting PoPs from them is not a reasonable assumption imo.

 

[Recursive]

and how hard is a PoP for a human to maintain on higher difficulties? Its incredibly difficult, even when I was at max supply with Greek hoplites I couldn't get one in the early game.

This seems like a problem with how Pledges of Protection are calculated.

I've had games where I take someone's capital and make them my vassal, and they are able to pledge to protect, while I still have too low a military score.

This sounds like a bug and should be reported if encountered.

What is intended is that every civ with at least 60% of the highest military might - using CvPlayer::GetMilitaryMight() - can make pledges to protect.

I note that calculateMilitaryMight() treats garrisons as half strength, assuming they won't take part in offensive action.

 

[Rekk]

I think the issue is that, on higher difficulties, it's very difficult for a human to reach 60% of the highest military strength, while it's very easy for even beaten down AIs to achieve it.

 

[Circe]

This sounds like a bug and should be reported if encountered.

What is intended is that every civ with at least 60% of the highest military might - using CvPlayer::GetMilitaryMight() - can make pledges to protect.

I note that calculateMilitaryMight() treats garrisons as half strength, assuming they won't take part in offensive action.

That can be a tall order on higher difficulties. Tall civs(likely Siam) don't get as much supply as wide ones to begin with, and players tend to fare well with smaller armies.
Using an average or some fixed value(military strength/# of units versus the CS in question?) might work better.

 

[pineappledan]

Would it be more fair if CS used something like the Major civ's threat calculation, which upweights player army size?

 

[Stalker0]

Would it be more fair if CS used something like the Major civ's threat calculation, which upweights player army size?

Yeah I thought that was already the case for PoP, I thought it was supposed to magnify the player's army power a bit to represent the human's superior play on higher difficulties?

 

[AndreyK]

I think that something amiss with military score calculation, because even with Terracota, being at military cap and 2-4 in all other scores out of 12 civs, I can PtP only in Renaissance after armories and castles.

 

[Stalker0]

I think that something amiss with military score calculation, because even with Terracota, being at military cap and 2-4 in all other scores out of 12 civs, I can PtP only in Renaissance after armories and castles.

Probably. I did a 4 hoplite rush as Greece recently. Monument + Shrine -> Immediately into 4 hoplites. Its about THE strongest military in terms of CS you can field at that point in the game, still didn't get a PtP