- Aug 9, 2017
- Alberta, Canada
Counterproposal to this proposal:
(2-30) Proposal: Integrate more processes from Bare Necessities mod
Bare Necessities mod link: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/bare-necessities.645157/ Add more flavor to city processes by integrate these three processes to VP: As for balance context: :c5faith: Prayer unlocks in Philosophy :tourism: Propaganda unlocks in Radio :c5goldenage: Prosperity...
Problem: Order's CV tenets are lame.
- There is no Tier 3 cultural victory in Order
- Order has 2 CV tenets and they are both Tier 2:
- Cultural Revolution: +34% Tourism to the other Order Civilizations. Spies steal technologies at double the normal rate. +5 from Great Works.
- Dictatorship of the Proletariat: +50% Tourism to civilizations with less Happiness.+1 happiness from Factories.
Dictatorship of the Proletariat is extremely powerful, basically because it's only 1 of 2 meaningful CV bonuses in the entire tree, other than a flat GW booster. A 50% tourism modifier is huge; basically carrying the full potential of Order's CV play
Order's Great Leap Forward is squatting on the slot that a Tier 3 CV tenet would use. It's also a lame tenet. It is a full T3 slot and GLF consists entirely of 2 free techs. No permanent bonuses. It's potentially quite powerful, since techs in the super-late game are expensive, but it's not special and it doesn't affect your playstyle. A Rationalism policy also gives a free tech, but it also gives a 2nd bonus. I think we can do better.
New Order T3 CV policy: Socialist Realism
Unlocks the Propaganda Process (convert 15% of Production into Tourism). +25% Tourism to the other Order Civilizations. +4 Production from Great Works
Great Leap Forward moved down to T2:
Gain 1 Free Technology. Spies steal technologies at double the normal rate. +1 for every 3 non-specialist Citizens.
Dictatorship of the Proletariat renamed to Cultural Revolution and nerfed:
+25% Tourism to civilizations with less Happiness.+1 happiness from Factories.
Party Leadership renamed to Dictatorship of the Proletariat (no balance change, it's just a bad name)
Spoiler Justifications :
- Cultural victory is the strongest, fastest, and safest victory type, based on user feedback and AI test games. We have been looking for ways to nerf it relative to other victory types
- Order is the strongest tree right now, according to user feedback.
- Autocracy got hit with a major nerf to its CV 2 versions ago, when we removed the GW and tile modifiers off Airports (Air Supremacy T3 tenet)
- Order is already the safest CV tree.
- It has numerous bonuses to allow it to work as an autarky, allowing it to ignore or cushion itself against world congress. It has a lot of in-built economic flexibility as well
- While Freedom's CV bonuses are all either indirect from its general specialist focus, and Autocracy has several policies that translate war bonuses into cultural victory
- Order has no T3 cultural tenet. It should have one.
- Both of its CV tenets are T2, meaning it reaches its peak potency as early as 5 policies, earlier than other ideologies. This makes Order's CV very unorthodox from a timing and structure perspective
- The two T2 CV tenets are packing enough power that Order is viable for a CV without a T3 tenet, which is it's own problem
- All ideology trees except for order have a full array of 3 T3 tenets that each point squarely at one of the ideology's intended victory paths. Order is the only one that is missing a full set, and it feels poorer for it.
- The T2 CV tenets that Order has are too strong and too boring.
- They are basically a large GW modifier and a large empire % tourism modifier. Neither of them asks you to do anything you weren't doing already.
- Compare to Autocracy, which has numerous flashy abilities that translate war winning into cultural dominance (eg. Futurism and Cult of Personality)
- Of the 3 ideologies, Order's CV is the most passive. Autocracy has its war fighting bonuses, and at least Freedom is oriented more around historic events, and has to control enough of the diplomatic game to stay competitive, because they are vulnerable to sanctions, etc. Order's CV bonuses amount to big numbers and pressing 'Next Turn'.
- Cultural revolution is just Freedom's Cultural Expression T1 tenet, but 2.5x stronger. It should do something else.
- Dictatorship of the Proletariat has a 50% culture modifier while most of the other % modifiers in the game are 10%. There is only 1 other 50% tourism modifier in the game, but it's a T3 tenet and it's much harder to use.
- In contrast, a Tourism process gives Order a choice, and a task to do. You have to choose to work a process instead of doing something else
- A Tourism process combines with all of the other production bonuses in the Order tree to make the ideology cohere as a CV ideology, in the same way that Freedom's general specialist bonuses resolve into a CV victory
- Great Leap Forward isn't focused enough, or interesting enough to merit its spot as a T3 tenet.
- Unlocking a new process has the "Wow factor" that would make it much more deserving of being a capstone ideology tenet
- Unlocking the Tourism Process at T3 would give Order a full complement of 3 T3 tenets, each focused on 1 of its intended victory paths.
- Great Leap Forward ought to be changed anyways.
- If GLF is going to be moved down to T2 that should come with a nerf.
- GLF has no basis in history. I have proposed additional bonuses for it that add a catchup mechanic and science for non-specialists, which are both more historically aligned with what the GLF was intended to do*
- GLF doesn't transform a game mechanic or unlock an entirely new one like most other T3 tenets do. It's just a large, conventional tech bonus
- I hazard to even call it a proper tenet, because it's the only example of a policy or tenet out of >100 policies in the game that has no permanent bonus that you can build off of. Its entire power is a 1-time bonus and then it's inert; a dead slot. This violates the basic idea of what a policy/tenet is supposed to do.