[Vote] (2-34) Proposal: Give Indonesia Jungle/Forest start bias

[N.Core]

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VP Congress: Session 2, Proposal 34
Proposal:

This is a minor issue for me as a map developer for Tectonic to see that Indonesia spawned on a place where isn't supposed to like Tundra region where there are less plantation resources like Cocoa or Citrus (resources that got enhanced by Candi).​

Currently, Indonesia does not have any start region priority, so they will spawn anywhere possible.​

Reasoning:

Indonesia need a Jungle priority since it will spawn them near the equator, where Jungles and also other Plantation resources are usually generated.​

This will make them a consistent and predictable civ since they will be leaning their flavor towards Plantations (building, religion, policy, etc.), and also quite thematic.​

Also, there are other resources like Spices and Sugar that are also having bias to be generated on Jungle, that can leads Indonesia towards Trader Sid's corporation since they will pick it anyway.​

​

This is easy to implement, so I sponsor this myself.

 

[azum4roll]

If anything they want to be without trees so they can improve their free luxuries right away without chopping.

 

[N.Core]

If anything they want to be without trees so they can improve their free luxuries right away without chopping.

Yeah, sure you can place them in Region Plains, but Jungle/Forest bias is where Cocoa & Citrus are.
Having a start priority for Indonesia to plantation region is kinda buffing them, so nerfing them by having them to chop is a good trade-off IMO.

 

[azum4roll]

It doesn't matter what Candi boosts. They're just the same as base Garden.

It's like saying Greece should have a forest bias because their UB boosts Silk and Dyes.

 

[N.Core]

It doesn't matter what Candi boosts. They're just the same as base Garden.

It's like saying Greece should have a forest bias because their UB boosts Silk and Dyes.

Ok, the point is Indonesia should have a starting bias near where plantation resources are.
It could be Plains, Grass, Forest, or Jungle.

Also, there are other resources like Spices and Sugar that are also having bias to be generated on Jungle, that can leads Indonesia towards Trader Sid's corporation since they will pick it anyway. (I added this to the OP)

Indonesia by nature heavily relies on plantation, whereas Greece doesn't.

 

[azum4roll]

Indonesia heavily relies on their own generated plantations. They don't have any more bonuses towards generic plantations than other generic luxuries.

 

[N.Core]

Indonesia heavily relies on their own generated plantations.

It's still plantations after all, which means that they can get benefit from Goddess of Springtime & Herbalists early on. Both of them boost Jungle/Forest and also plantation resources. This is a proper kit for a civ that relies heavily on plantations, which makes sense to give Indonesia a Jungle/Forest bias start.

Spoiler Goddess of Springtime :

To plantations:
+1 Gold
+1 Food
+1 Faith
To Herbalists:
+1 Science
+2 Faith

 

[Legen]

Forest/jungle bias is kinda crowded right now, with five civs on it, and their uniques need trees a lot more than Indonesia. And there was a move before to reduce the amount of starting bias due to how often a civ that relies heavily on terrain wouldn't get it due to the sheer number of civ with a bias.

You may have better odds if you propose an "avoid X" bias. There's currently one "avoid X" bias for Poland that has a similar justification as yours ("Medieval UB wants Sheep/Cattle/Horse") in the CivStartBiases.sql and only two civs with an "avoid X" bias.

 

[N.Core]

Forest/jungle bias is kinda crowded right now, with five civs on it, and their uniques need trees a lot more than Indonesia. And there was a move before to reduce the amount of starting bias due to how often a civ that relies heavily on terrain wouldn't get it due to the sheer number of civ with a bias.

You may have better odds if you propose an "avoid X" bias. There's currently one "avoid X" bias for Poland that has a similar justification as yours ("Medieval UB wants Sheep/Cattle/Horse") in the CivStartBiases.sql and only two civs with an "avoid X" bias.

This is a counterproposal territory, and I can't counter-propose my own proposal unless I withdraw from this one.
But this proposal has a compelling argument about how Indonesia play style of they should have a tendency towards plantation resources and its surrounding components (Goddess of Springtime, Herbalists, Trader Sid's, etc.), because their UA needs it.

If you want to propose yours, please do.

 

[Rekk]

Poland's UB boosts pasture resources more than a Stable does.

Indonesia relies on the resources it creates itself; it doesn't need a large bias towards more plantation resources.

 

[N.Core]

For my Lord Gajah Mada, I sponsor this.

 

[Recursive]

Proposal sponsored by N.Core.

 

[pineappledan]

This really doesn't seem like it has a strong reason to happen.
If anything wouldn't this be a nerf? This would increase the chances that Indonesia starts in a place where their unique luxuries spawn under a jungle/forest, and take longer to clear.

 

[N.Core]

This really doesn't seem like it has a strong reason to happen.
If anything wouldn't this be a nerf? This would increase the chances that Indonesia starts in a place where their unique luxuries spawn under a jungle/forest, and take longer to clear.

Placing Indonesia anywhere (like Desert or forestless Tundra) will be more of a long-term nerf than consistently putting them near Jungle/Forest.
There is a good chance that Indonesia may spawn on Grassland/Plains near Jungle/Forest.

I've tested this several times using a civ with Jungle/Forest bias, like Brazil or Siam. Of course, your experience may vary depending on the map.

 

[azum4roll]

Placing Indonesia anywhere (like Desert or forestless Tundra) will be more of a long-term nerf than consistently putting them near Jungle/Forest.

Why? Every region is supposed to be balanced against each other, or civs that start in tundra or desert will always be underperforming, which we're not seeing.

 

[Rekk]

Forest/jungle bias is kinda crowded right now, with five civs on it, and their uniques need trees a lot more than Indonesia.

Absolutely. Indonesia is  not hurt if it doesn't receive extra plantation resources.

Indonesia need a Jungle priority since it will spawn them near the equator, where Jungles and also other Plantation resources are usually generated.

This is flawed reasoning.

 

[pineappledan]

Yeah, this proposal seems to miss why civs have the start biases they do. I’m not going to say it’s flawed reasoning, but it’s different reasoning that uses a lower threshold of evidence than civs that have much more overt dependence on some terrain.

In comparison to a civ like the Iroquois, Indonesia’s reason for forest placement is weak and tendentious. Placing them in forest might mean an iroquois player gets edged out out of that map placement. The reasoning also ignores the simple fact that a forest bias doesn’t guarantee a plantation luxuryX you could get truffles, for instance.

The devs have, up to this point, made a conscious effort to reserve start biases for civs that really need them. If civs that merely have preferences or indirect benefits from certain terrain start getting biases, they will edge out and pollute the start bias pool for the civs that really are live-or-die on certain terrains.

 

[Rekk]

To repeat:

Iroquois (and the other civs with this bias) rely on trees in order to make use of their abilities.
Indonesia does not.

Indonesia gaining this bias means that it might gain the only forest/jungle bias on the map and the other civs that actually need it will not.
Making Indonesia "more consistent" (ie stronger) in this way results in Iroquois, Aztecs, Brazil, Mayans and Siam being less consistent.

This is the exact reason why we gave Indonesia "no bias" in the first place. Its Uniques are a self-contained kit which isn't reliant on any start.

 

[Recursive]

As Host, I cast the tiebreaking vote in favor of Nay, so this proposal fails.