[Vote] (2-52) Proposal: Cooldown between unit purchases

[ilteroi]

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VP Congress: Session 2, Proposal 52
Again, inspired by the unit spam discussion.

Make it so that you have to wait 5 turns between combat unit purchases in the same city.

Modification to the duration possible based on policies etc but let's postpone that discussion and start with a flat 5 turns (on standard speed).

Exception for "mercenaries" like free company etc, which is an indirect buff.

Edit: Clarified that it's about combat units.

 

[Voremonger]

Do people actually buy regular units with gold? For regular units I only ever do it in emergency situations or in the early game because -50% XP is really noticeable. Or are we talking about the purchase of diplomatic units?

 

[ilteroi]

clarified the proposal; keep in mind this change affects both AI and human players. so if you don't buy units anyway that's fine but AI unit spam will be reduced.

 

[Solic]

Would be too much of a nerf to tall freedom empires for my liking. I don't think you can have this change without discussing policies as well, because freedom heavily relies on just being able to purchase units.

I'd rather have gold being more limited, so that this is not as easily possible, rather than curbing unit purchases with a hard limit.

 

[Stalker0]

This would nerf high level AIs into the ground, they rely on fast unit replication to beat high level players.

I’ve said it before, you can’t solve this problem without completely changing the game.

 

[ilteroi]

they can still build units normally, so let's not overestimate the impact. but yes, it's a fine line to walk.

 

[CppMaster]

Do people actually buy regular units with gold? For regular units I only ever do it in emergency situations or in the early game because -50% XP is really noticeable. Or are we talking about the purchase of diplomatic units?

Yeah, sometimes when I want to have units sooner and have plenty of gold and supply left. It's better to have a unit with less promotions than not having a unit at all. It's usefull for defending sieges and may even be considered an exploit, maybe?

 

[rusbeh]

This would nerf high level AIs into the ground, they rely on fast unit replication to beat high level players.

I’ve said it before, you can’t solve this problem without completely changing the game.

No but we can alleviate the problem and thats better than nothing.

 

[stii]

This would nerf high level AIs into the ground, they rely on fast unit replication to beat high level players.

I’ve said it before, you can’t solve this problem without completely changing the game.

Yeah this just makes AIs weaker with minimal effect on players, even if it was 5 turns for all human cities it wouldn't do that much and per city makes it do even less.

 

[CppMaster]

This would nerf high level AIs into the ground, they rely on fast unit replication to beat high level players.

There is also a proposal for nerfing high level promotions which would nerf players. Those 2 proposal together would reduce combat tedium of carpet of units.

 

[alchx]

5 turns cooldown is too much. And, it seems to me that for AI it will be a disaster against a human - it will be enough to kill or wound the defenders of the first line and the entire AI front will fall apart without reinforcements. 3 is more optimal, but I would suggest starting with 2 turns and see how much it reduces unit spam. Spamming is really a problem when a besieged city can field 6 units in 3 turns.

And see if productive empires can begin to conquer weaker neighbors who have chosen the path of cultural, diplomatic or tourist victory.

 

[alchx]

Do people actually buy regular units with gold? For regular units I only ever do it in emergency situations or in the early game because -50% XP is really noticeable. Or are we talking about the purchase of diplomatic units?

Yes, as a gift to city-states for 26..28 + 8..10 influence when units are requested. Or if a significant city-state is under threat of capture.

 

[Legen]

Units already suffer from halved experience when purchased with gold, I think this proposal is overkill. There's a reason why Draft Registration is a thing. I could see if the proposal were to replace the experience penalty for a cooldown, but not as it is now.

 

[Circe]

I buy units on defense plenty, and Freedom negates the penalty altogether. It plays into complaints people have made in other areas, such as AIs immediately replenishing garrisons and armies at a rate the player can't match, making city capture more tedious, so I tentatively think it's a good idea.
Draft could be changed to reduce the cooldown, especially if purchased unit exp is modified. Faith purchased units receiving full exp has stood out to me as an unwelcome disparity for a while.
More broadly I think unit spam comes down mostly to supply limits though. I've got no real idea of how many units the AI is buying vs building with its remaining bonuses.

 

[Tekamthi]

its too gamey; the objective is not distasteful necessarily, but cooldowns are no fun. What's the point in working to create a strong economy if you can only use it one dribble at a time?

I'd maybe be okay with cooldowns on purchases of the same unit type in the same city, but I don't like this cooldown applied generally on all combat units.

Or maybe consecutive unit purchases should cost food, not so much that you wouldn't buy a single unit from time to time, but enough that you would think twice of buying six in a row. Just spitballing here, but this kind of constraint is far more appealing imo, even if it achieves the same thing in the end.

 

[Stalker0]

There is also a proposal for nerfing high level promotions which would nerf players. Those 2 proposal together would reduce combat tedium of carpet of units.

Yes and every other single time in like the 10 years we have been doing this mod we have tried to nerf high level promotions, the community balked. People like their toys, high level promotions are fun. I wouldn't hold your breath for them passing this time either.

 

[rkkn]

Yes and every other single time in like the 10 years we have been doing this mod we have tried to nerf high level promotions, the community balked. People like their toys, high level promotions are fun. I wouldn't hold your breath for them passing this time either.

Indeed. Nerfing promotions may be good for balance, but it sacrifices fun. That's no good. Better for balance to be achieved some other way.

 

[CppMaster]

Yes and every other single time in like the 10 years we have been doing this mod we have tried to nerf high level promotions, the community balked. People like their toys, high level promotions are fun. I wouldn't hold your breath for them passing this time either.

Well, it's either this with nerfing high level promotions or dealing with carpets of units to balance it out. Some may say that dealing with carpets of units is tedious and kills fun. It's subjective which is better.

 

[Voremonger]

Maybe the amount of free XP the AI get should scale with era? That could be used to keep them competitive even if the number of units is lower. Also maybe people will flip on promotions if they're on the receiving end more frequently.

 

[CppMaster]

Maybe the amount of free XP the AI get should scale with era? That could be used to keep them competitive even if the number of units is lower. Also maybe people will flip on promotions if they're on the receiving end more frequently.

This is a cool idea! I'd vote for it.