2.6 Discussion - Religion

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Rise of Mankind' started by c0d5579, Dec 22, 2008.

  1. Shai_Halud

    Shai_Halud Warlord

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    I'm not sure about the rest, but , if the Manhattan project can allow us to produce nukes, couldn't there be a prophet-constructable wonder which grants the construction of crusaders? I still think the crusade should be a national wonder and crusades usually were usually led by great kings not prophets. Jihads, however, would fit this description perfectly. They could be prophet constructable world wonders.

    Anyhow, I think I'll produce another list with some more potential religious units. I think I can come up with quite a few more if I get creative.
     
  2. Shai_Halud

    Shai_Halud Warlord

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    All the eastern religions except for Confucianism seem so have some martial arts forms. Even Islam has a few. I'm going to suggest as many of these as I can as basis for religious units from those religions. I' constructing the new list now. Should be done before the 20th.

    Even the Egyptians seem to have one form of armed martial arts called Tahtib. Though it's only known use is recreation and entertainment, it is likely based on ancient military fighting forms involving the sword.
     
  3. Shai_Halud

    Shai_Halud Warlord

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    There is one thing I'd like to say before starting this list. That is, Zap, Why is Sikhism not in RoM? It's the fifth largest religion in the world! Speaking objectively, were it not for Christianity and Islam, Judaism would by no means be considered an important religion, yet it is included and Sikhism is just completely ignored. Some were even talking about including Shinto and we haven't even yet added in a religion as important as Sikhism? After reading so much about it while studying hindu martial arts, I just can't understand why it would not be included or even considered for inclusion until now. Can we please add in Sikhism by the time vers 3.0 comes out?




    Kemetism (Amun-Ra) - “House of Life” could replace Egyptian Monastery. These are where temple records and sacred writings were kept. This religion should be either Egyptianism or Kemetism as the religion of Amun-Ra did not come about until the foundation of the New Kingdom in the 16th century BC.

    Units –
    • Acolyte
    • Tatihb (The ancient Egyptians performed stick fencing or stick fighting as a form of entertainment. This type of fencing was probably based on actual fighting systems used in combat with a shield and a sword)
    Buildings – Temple of Heka (required to build acolyte),
    • Temples of Amun-Ra are enabled,
    • House of the Embalmers,
    • Secret Burial Chamber (where mummies were hidden during Roman and, later, Christian oppression),
    • Aursur Auset Chapterhouse
    National Wonders –
    • Temple of the Pharaoh, Temples of: the Ennead, the Ogdoad, Khnum-Satis-Anuket, Amun-Mut-Khons, Ptah--Sekhmet-Neferte,
    World Wonders –
    • Valley of the Kings,
    • Temple of Amun at Abydos,
    • Book of the Dead (standardized) or the Saite Recension,
    • Temple of Aten (would dramatically affect the religion and would cause temporary instability and rebelliousness),
    • Oracle of Amun,
    • The Hieroglyphica (a literary explanation of the hieroglyphs written in the early medieval era; very popular among humanists of the Renaissance),
    • The Rosetta Stone


    Hellenism

    Units –
    • Philosopher,
    • Dendra Infantry (early form of heavy armor),
    • Pankration (Greek wrestling and boxing; though originally invented for the Olympic Games, it is known to have been used in battle by both the Spartans and the Macedonian; perhaps construction of the Games would allow for this units production in all Hellenistic cities)
    • Hoplite
    • Macedonian (Alexander’s),
    • Medieval Grenadier (used Greek Fire filled clay balls)
    Buildings –
    • Megaron (as close as ancient Mycenaeans came to building a temple),
    • Temple of Vesta (maintained the sacred flame seen as symbolic of each city’s spirit),
    • Mithraeum,
    • Temple of Isis,
    • Temple of Osiris
    National Wonders –
    • Temple of Poseidon (seems to originally have been considered the supreme god),
    • Temple of the Emperor
    World Wonders –
    • The Labyrinth (was originally a tool of foreign oppression),
    • Palace of Knossos,
    • The Iliad
    • The Odyssey,
    • Domus Aurea,
    • The Empire of Alexander the Great or the Kelah-i-Dive-Sefid (“Castle of the White Demon”, Persian nickname foe Alexander’s castle in Persia),
    • Castra Peregrinorum (large Mithraeum found in Rome),
    • Arc de Triumph,
    • Palace of Culture and Science,
    • Palace of the Soviets,
    • Volkshalle (Hitler's Capitol)


    Zoroastrianism –

    Units -
    • Magi
    • Asawaran or Aztan (A knightly caste among the Sassanid Empire; Could be a fanatical unit representing the aggressive spread of Zurvanism),
    • Spahbod Eran (Persian field marshal)
    • Master of the Heart
    Buildings –
    • Tower of Silence (tower atop which the dead are left to be eaten by the birds)
    National Wonders -
    World Wonders –
    • The Avesta (the collected sacred texts of Zoroastrianism)
    • Behistun Inscription (this is actually a monumental reliefe on the side of a cliff)
    • Denkard (a standardized creed for Zoroastrianism)
    • Hermitage of the Saheb-e-Dilan (produces master of the heart who could bring about a revival of Zoroastrianism)


    Naghualism –
    Units –
    • Nacom (Great General)
    • Mummified Effigy (Great General)
    • Talateccatl (Great General),
    • Divine Vanguard (warrior priests who would go out in front of the army and capture and sacrifice enemy troops to propagate victory for the army behind them)
    • Cuauhchicqueh (elite warriors who fought in pairs to establish a perimeter around the enemy and hold the line of battle)
    • Otontin (order of elite warriors ranking above Jaguar warriors; you must capture five or six sacrifices to be admitted into this order; fought with a shield design decorated with four crescents)
      Qumichin (means "mouse"; denotes a class of spy)
    • Atl Atl (the Meso-American weapon of choice, though it was more often wielded as a side arm for shock troops rushing into battle)
    Buildings –
    • Temple of Quetzalcoatl,
    • Naghualistic Festival Ground,
    • Huaca,
    • Calmacec (replaces university),
    • Telpochcalli (replaces garrison)
    National Wonders –
    • Temple of Tlaloc,
    • Temple of the Hero Twins,
    • Temple of Tezcatlipoca,
    • Temple of Xipe Totec
    World Wonders –
    • Teotihuacán,
    • Temple of the Heroic Dead,
    • Mausoleum of the Sapa Incas,
    • Machu Picchu,
    • Temple of Huitzilopochtli,
    • Popol Vuh

    Taoism -

    Units –
    • Celestial Master
    • Xingyiquan (aggressive bursting out and driving through martial art)
    • Tai Chi Chuan (focuses on appropriate change in response to outside forces; the study of yielding and "sticking" to an incoming attack rather than attempting to meet it with opposing force)
    • Baguazhang (focuses on fast and effective joint locks, knockouts, breaks, and other form of physical trauma)
    • Bak Mei Pai (concentrates a lot on nimble footwork, trapping and offensive attacks which are close to the body)
    • Liuhebafa (also called water boxing based on its methods)
    Buildings –
    • Fortune Teller’s Abode,
    • School of Waidan (external alchemy; dangerous chemical experiments in search for immortality),
    • Feng Shui spiral, Dojo (“Place of the Tao”; martial artists train here),
    • School of Neidan (internal alchemy; attempt to lengthen life through philosophy and proper morality),
    • Taoist Festival Ground
    National Wonders –
    • Temple of the Three Pure Ones,
    • Temple of the Jade Emperor
    World Wonders –
    • Tao Te Ching,
    • Zhuangzi
    • Daozang
    • Tomb of the Terra Cotta Warriors,
    • White Cloud Temple


    Confucianism –

    Units –
    • Gentleman
    Buildings –
    • Stone Art School,
    • School of Calligraphy,
    • Confucian Commune
    National Wonders –
    • Temple of Good Governance,
    • Li/“ritual”,
    • Ren/“relationships”,
    • Xiào/“filial piety”,
    • Zhōng/“loyalty”,
    • Rén/“humanity”,
    • Zhèngmíng/ “rectification of names” (these function as a project, similar to the space race, representing the adoption of various Confucian principles as doctrines of state. This converts all of your cities to Confucianism, produces several imperial gentlemen, and should have several statistical benefits)
    World Wonders –
    • The Analects,
    • The Five Classics


    Hinduism –

    Units –
    • Yogi,
    • Kshatriya (warrior/noble caste; could be an elephant unit),
    • Elephant Artillery ( a cannon strapped to an elephant’s back; I can’t believe this worked)
    • Armored Elephant (Mughals were the first to equip elephants with full-body armor)
    • Kalarippayattu (incorporates strikes, kicks, grappling, choreographed martial art sequences, and weaponry, as well as healing techniques)
    • Chakravyuha (ancient seven-layered defensive formation mentioned in the Vedas; would actually make a better name for a Hindu religious promotion)
    • Vajra-Mushi (both a knuckleduster-like weapon and an ancient Indian martial art identified with that weapon; incorporates striking aspects, grappling aspects, and a study of vital pressure points)
    • Silambam (a traditional Dravidian martial art based on stick fighting; uses an elongates fighting stick called a Chilambamboo not a quarter-staff, it is held like a sword)
    • Chakram Infantry (throwing weapon)
    • Chakkar Infantry (hoop-like blade which can also be thrown)
    • Gatka (a defensive and offensive Sikh martial art[ associated with the Sikhs (but open to anyone) that focuses on infusing the physical martial art with both the spiritual and mental. Gatka is also the name of a stick used for practicing sword fighting)
    • Thang-Ta (involves using a sword or spear against one or more opponents)
    • Lathi (lathi is basically a 6 to 8-foot (2.4 m) long cane tipped with a metal blunt. It is used by swinging it back and forth like a sword)
    Buildings –
    • Hindu Festival Ground,
    • School of Dhanurveda (martial arts),
    • School of Bhakti Yoga (the path of love and devotion),
    • School of Karma Yoga (the path of right action),
    • School of Rāja Yoga (the path of meditation),
    • School of Jñāna Yoga (the path of wisdom),
    • Subsistence Commune
    National Wonders –
    • Mandir of Vishnu,
    • Mandir of Devi,
    • Mandir of Shiva,
    • Mandir of Genesha,
    • Mandir of Surya
    World Wonders -
    • Śruti
    • Smritis

    Buddhism

    Units –
    • Monk
    • Dob-dob
    • Shaolin Monk (Kung Fu)
    • Hung Ga (characterized by deep low stances, notably its "sei ping ma" horse stance, and strong hand techniques)
    • Meihua Quan (characterized by five static positions intermixed with dynamic motion comprised of light rapid footwork and large flowing movements)
    • Wing Chun (Tenets of Wing Chun include practicality, efficiency and economy of movement)
    • White Crane (characteristics of this style are deep-rooted stances, intricate hand techniques and fighting mostly at close range)
    • Dragon Kung Fu (The principals of the style are posture and momentum, timing and sensitivity; heart of the system is a set called mor kiu or "magical arms." It is a series of high-speed hand and arm techniques using punches, grabs, palm strikes, arm blocks, and elbow strikes)
    Buildings –
    • Buddharūpa,
    • Buddhavacana (texts associated with the Buddha),
    • Terma (Tibetan term for a class of holy scriptures and sacred objects),
    • Gelug Monestary (allows production of dob-dobs)
    National Wonders –
    • Great Statue of Buddha
    World Wonders –
    • Footprint of the Buddha,
    • Visuddhimagga (important Theravada text containing the Pali Canon),
    • Milinda Pañha (also sometimes included in the Pali Canon),
    • Mahayana-Sraddhotpada-Sastra (Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana),
    • Gyeongcheonsa Pagoda,
    • Wat Yai, Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch,
    • Bardo Thodol (Tibetan Book of the Dead)
    • Shaolin Temple


    Judaism

    Units –
    • Rabbi,
    • Heberew Mercenary,
    • Maccabee,
    • Zealot
    • Krav Maga (extremely effective form or combat taught to Israeli soldiers; involves both unarmed and knife and gun techniques)
    Buildings –
    • Tabernacle,
    • Beth Midrash (Torah study school; benefits from each of the scripture wonders)
    National Wonders -
    World Wonders –

    • Torah,
    • Hanukkah (Produces Maccabees),
    • Masada (produces Zealots),
    • Talmud, Temple of Herod,
    • Kabbalah,
    • Jewish Reform


    Christianity - I don’t know who made the Church of the Nativity the holy site of Christianity, but please change it to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. You don’t have to change the graphic but, please, if nothing else, just change the name.

    Units –
    • Crusader,
    • Flagellants (creates happiness and unhealthiness),
    • Conquistadores (fanatical unit),
    • Templar Sergeant
    • Templar Knights,
    • Hospitaller Sergeant
    • Hospitaller Knights
    • Teutonic Sergeant
    • Teutonic Knights
    Buildings –
    • Baptismal Site (req adjacent river),
    • Templar Bank (req. Order of the Knights Templar),
    • Masonic Lodge
    National Wonders -
    • National Crusade,
    • National Reformation,
    • The Vernacular Bible, National Revival,
    • The Freemason Grand Lodge (can only be built after the Knights Templar are obsolete),
    • NEBN (National Evangelist Broadcasting Nertwork)
    World Wonders –
    • Missions of Paul the Apostle (creates a missionary every two turns),
    • Bethabara (baptism site of John the Baptist),
    • The Nicene Creed, Constantine’s Bible or just The Bible,
    • Monestary of St. Catharine,
    • Order of the Knights Templar (must be built in the Christian Holy City),
    • The Reconquista (produces a small army; must lose 4 or 5 cities to build),
    • The Book of Mormons,
    • Gideon’s International (produces missionaries or spreads Christianity heavily)


    Islam –

    Units –
    • Imam
    • Mameluke
    • Chaquan (features graceful movements and some acrobatic aerial maneuvers. Chāquán also includes a large range of weapons)
    • Tan Tui (emphasize blocking, stances, footwork, and most of all, kicks)
    • Mujaddid if the 1st Jihad
    • Mujaddid if the 2nd Jihad
    • Mujaddid if the 3rd Jihad
    • Mujaddid if the 4th Jihad
    • Mujaddid if the 5th Jihad
    • Mujaddid if the 6th Jihad
    • Mujaddid if the 7th Jihad
    • Mujaddid if the 8th Jihad
    • Mujaddid if the 9th Jihad
    • Mujaddid if the 10th Jihad
    Buildings –
    • Khanqa (sufi school; highly theological in nature),
    • Hadith (traditional writings about the life and works of Muhammad; heavily critiqued),
    • Carpet Weavery
    National Wonders –
    • Citadel of Mamelukes,
    • National Mausoleum
    World Wonders –
    • 1st and 2nd Jihad,
    • 3rd, 4th, and 5th Jihad
    • 6th, 7th, and 8th Jihad
    • 9th and 10th Jihad
    • The Dome of the Rock (must be built in the Jewish Holy City),
    • Al-Aqsa Mosque,
    • Ummayad Mosque,
    • Shah Mosque (in Isfahan; just look at it),
    • Sultan Ahmed Mosque (looks almost just like the Haiga Sophia; stands facing the Haiga Sophia; should only be buildable in the same city as the Haiga Sophia),
    • Shah Faisal Masjid,
    • Baitul Mukarram

    Jihad – Initial Expansion of Islam
    Jihad – Saladin’s Propaganda Against the Crusaders 1144AD and Almohadic Everlasting Jihad, the War in Spain 1128AD
    Jihad – Babur Against the Rajputs 1527
    Jihad - By Ottoman Empire Against Vienna in 1683
    Jihad – the Fulani Jihads in mid 1700s and the Jihad Against the Hindus in Afghanistan in the mid 1700s
    Jihad – Wahabbist Saudi Jihad against all other forms of Islam
    Jihad Mahdic Jihad in the Sudan in 1881
    Jihad by the Ottoman Empire against the Allied powers in 1914
    Jihad in the 1980s Against the Russian invasion of Afghanistan
    Jihad in 2002 by the Taliban Against the Pro-Western government in Afghanistan
     
  4. Jas

    Jas Chieftain

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    I agree 100%. I think the *only* reason it's not included is because the members of the development team just happen not to know of it, or any Sikhs. 5th largest religion in the world :confused:

    It would also enable the concept of the saint soldier to be further explored, perhaps as a new civ - "The Sikh Empire". This was short lived, but inclusive of other religions (eg Hindu, Islam) in its government.

    The martial aspects would make a great inclusion in civ - look at the Akali and Nihang warriors for example, or Gatka martial art.
     
  5. konradcabral

    konradcabral Prince

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    About sikhism: Sorry if I'm talking a big crap, but I think that's natural sikhism not being in the mod. Although it is the 5th largest religion of the world, in terms of number of members, what cultural influence did it bring to the rest of the world? Doesn't this faith appear in this ranking just because it was developed in an ultrapopulated region?

    Please, I don't want to offend anyone's faith, it's just an opinion.

    About schisms: Don't know if you saw it, but in the Revolution mod forum, they created a thread to discuss religious schisms! Being Rev part of RoM, the next versions could count with it! Wouldn't be marvelous? :)

    @ShaiHalud and guys: Please contribute with your knowledge there too. Here it goes the link:

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=314309#post7881487
     
  6. Shai_Halud

    Shai_Halud Warlord

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    About the same influence that Naghualism brought to the rest of the world. Actually, considerably more. With 23,807,044 adherents, I think it counts as an important religion. And if Jewdaism can get in with just over half that number (81% of whom live in Israel and the United States) and because of its break off religions, I don't see any legitimate reason to disclude it.
     
  7. Wisaeman

    Wisaeman Chieftain

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    In relation to Jewdaism, not only for the number of adepts but for the solid historical value. :D
     
  8. Shai_Halud

    Shai_Halud Warlord

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    I mentioned the breakoff religions didn't I? But, to be honest, those might have received an equal amount of influence from Zoroastrianism as Judaism itself did.
     
  9. Jas

    Jas Chieftain

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    Koncadcabrel, "what cultural influence did it bring to the rest of the world". I'm really surprised at this comment. Just because YOU are ignorant of its cultural significance, does not mean it has less cultural significance than a religion you do happen to know of.

    Wisaeman, I would not diminish the "solid historical value" of Judaism, but I hope you realise that just because for YOU Judaism has that, it does not mean it is the same for everyone else. By way of example, Judaism has as little "solid historical value" in the East, as Sikhism obviously has for you.

    (For the record, I believe Judaism should definitely be in the game, but primarily because it is an old and "root" religion.)

    Anyway, the point remains that the exclusion of the 5th biggest religion is an unacceptable oversight in this game. From a gaming perspective alone it is doubly unfortunate because, being a highly martial religion, it would have brought something interesting to the game.
     
  10. konradcabral

    konradcabral Prince

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    Please don't be mad with us... I warned that it was just an opinion...

    You did not clarify my ignorance: what cultural influence did it bring to the rest of the world? I mean, what new concepts did this religion bring to mankind?
     
  11. Shai_Halud

    Shai_Halud Warlord

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    The principal belief of Sikhism is faith in waheguru—represented using the sacred symbol of ēk ōaṅkār, the Universal God. Sikhism advocates the pursuit of salvation through disciplined, personal meditation on the name and message of God. A key distinctive feature of Sikhism is a non-anthropomorphic concept of God, to the extent that one can interpret God as the Universe itself. From the Wiki article on the subject.
     
  12. Wisaeman

    Wisaeman Chieftain

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    First Point:

    Well, try to see the wide of cultural influence, that Jewdaism take over after the first Diaspore, after this, we have this religion in inside the Medieval Europe, and after this, in the Colonialism Age, Jewists creating settlements in USA (in this case, in the Colonies in North America, to say USA in this context is an Anacronism).
    After this, the Religion and is Adepts lived the terror on Nazi, and at the end of Second Great War, the creation of the Israel State.

    Second Point:

    Jewdaism is a basis to Christianism, if in YOUR game exists a Christianism religion, need to exist a Jewdaism on game.

    Third Point:

    I'm Buddhist, this is not my faith, but for historial values we need to have pieces of the history on game.

    You take so hard only concept ideas, nobody here is a specialist on Antropology or Social Sciences here.

    Take easy on next time, we are here to enjoy not for stress yourself.
     
  13. Shai_Halud

    Shai_Halud Warlord

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    Yes Christianism and Muhamatism. Very important religions:p

    That second point's pretty bad. I mean Judaism grew out of ancient Sumerian beliefs, Zoroastrianism and Hinduism both grew out of the ancient Vedantic Religion, Taoism and Confucianism grew out of traditional Chinese folklore, Hellenism comes from the ancient Mycenaean religion, Everything comes from somewhere. And if a great messianic faith arose out of African Shamanism and claimed 30% of the world as its followers, I'm sure the history channel would start featuring 400 programs on African Shamanism and every 4-year-old would know all about the important shamans of Africa. Every religion has an ancestor and just because everyone around you seems to know of that religion does not necessarily make it more important. Especially if so few people practice that religion.

    Still, Judaism is already in the game so I don't mind leaving it there, It's just that it feels kind of weird seeing Judaism and Amun-Ra as the great religions of the 20th century all the time. Still, if we can get Zap to add Sikhism in, the next religion I'd consider would be African shamanism. I mean we have NO African religions in the game... and no Amun-Ra does not count.

    And yes Zap we're always going to be asking you to put in more religions.:lol: What's left on the list anyway? Lets see Sikhism, Voodoo, Asatru, Shinto, Chinese Folk Religion, Inuit Spiritualism, Australian Aboriginal Mythology, Inca religion, Ghost Dance, Polynesian Mythology, Siberian Shamanism, Manichaism, Gnosticism, the Church of Satan, and the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood. Maybe Californianism could be our "future" religion. :D
     
  14. zappara

    zappara Mod Designer

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    Hmm, I thought I had replied this thread but seems my post never appeared. Ok, short version this time... I had considered adding Chinese Folk lore when I added those 4 other religion (after all Chinese folk lore has about 1 billion followers..). My original intention was to add only couple very old religions that were specific to certain areas in our world or were historically/culturally important, but which also disappeared due to more powerful religions' propapanga. I'm aware that there's some 50 religions that I could have added - it was just a design choice to add a few, the more you add, the more work it is and the more complex it gets to balance everything (just adding religion is not enough, you'll have to design buildings, wonders, find history about them etc) - plus there's limited amount of icon slots in gamefont files for religions/corporations (yes, I know couple mods that expanded those files to hold 40+ religions). So for the remaining gamefont slots that RoM can in current state have I rather add new corporations, I think there's room for 3 or 4 religions/corporations in gamefont files. I also have to consider how I spend my time when improving RoM, what things I want changed - I can only do limited amount of changes... so if some makes religion mod for RoM, that would save lot of time from me ;)
     
  15. Shai_Halud

    Shai_Halud Warlord

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    Zap, why do all but the Hellenistic religious promotion require a unit to be led by a great general? It's not like they're overpowered and besides, this renders the upgrade discount for Waidan useless as great general units upgrade for free. As things are, there is little motivation to adopt any religion but Hellenism, Amun-Ra, and Christianity. Please, just make the religious upgrades available to all.
     
  16. Jas

    Jas Chieftain

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    Fair point :) But I really do object to a US centric view of the world.

    Perhaps this is unsurprising of course, given that the game is programmed in the US and most forum members are probably from the US.
     
  17. zappara

    zappara Mod Designer

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    When making religion changes I'll have to think about few things: If we are going to add new religion building types, there should one for each religion per each special building type (currently special building types are monastery, temple, cathedral, pantheon). Special building type means that when city has several buildings from one type and city has state religion present, only the building that belongs to state religion is enabled ie. its modifiers are active. For one special building type each religion's building can be enabled from different tech so the buildings can be f.ex. on different eras. With national or great wonders I haven't use special building feature as I'm not sure how the game would handle that situation. So when thinking new religion building types I try to find something that fits to all religions and few examples could be: Burial site, Chapel (small temple), Basilica. Then we'd need to make up for each religion a building type that fits to one of the new special building categories. Note that currently in RoM cathedrals are actually divided to 2 special building groups, older religion's "cathedrals" are enabled with Pantheon type. :crazyeye:
     
  18. Shai_Halud

    Shai_Halud Warlord

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    How about festival grounds?
     
  19. johny smith

    johny smith Deity

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    Well I read part of this thread. I have been out for a little while on modding. But in respect to religions in general.....

    I do not know where or if you have SDK available for RoM, but the gamefont files are always going to be an issue when adding things. Maybe you just want small addons, but in either case I would recommend looking at what was done in the WoC. Like I said a thousand times before we have 184 slots for religions, 184 slots for corporations, and 368 slots for resources.



    And why I say this is crazy things happen when messing with the gamefont files, and the point of the WoC gamefont was to lock the slots in the game. So you are loading all the spaces regardless. But since you have to nothing display the 184th religion you never see it. No unforeseen situation was the idea.

    And if you guys want any of the stuff in Rapture go ahead. You don't need to ask.
     
  20. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2008
    Messages:
    16,281
    Location:
    California, USA
    johny smith that Rapture mod looks awesome. A bit overwhelming but awesome. While I don't think zappara will use them all I do think he should use some of the main ones, especially if you already made stuff for them.
     

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