2 Units I Would Like To See Tweaked

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by flipk1d, Jan 5, 2006.

  1. flipk1d

    flipk1d Chieftain

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    1. The musketman-
    i guess this is a bit nitpicky, but why is the strength of the musketman 9? that is 1.5 times the longbowman, which was historically a MUCH stronger unit in a one to one matchup

    the great thing about the musket was that you could train a man for a day and hed be a competent musketman, for longbowmen youd be lucky to be able to string a long bow after a month of training

    i would have liked to see the musket man as a much cheaper unit with lower strength, this would elminate the historically redundant longbowman to musketman upgrade

    but more importantly it would facilitate the construction of lots of musketmen, which would upgrade to lots and lots of riflemen then even more infantry, which is something we did see historically, the ballooning of armies at this time

    2. infantry vs cavalry
    what i absolutely hate seeing, is my full strength infantry getting owned by cavalry when cavalry is defending, it just seems ridiculous for ww1 era infantry to lose consistently to cavalry, charge of the light brigade anyone?

    it seems to happen because by this time cavalry have combat one and pinch, which puts them at 20.25 to my infantry's 22 with combat 1, not a huge difference

    it would be nice to see infantry's +25% bonus against gunpowder be extended to cavalry as well
     
  2. upstart

    upstart Warlord

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    i just know id like to see the cannon tweaked in someway. as it is there is absolutely no reason for building any, as it just is an option in the short time between catapults and modern artillery.
     
  3. MrCynical

    MrCynical Deity

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    1) Given longbowmen are used almost exclusively in defensive roles, and mostly in cities they tend to have an effective strength of more than 9. I don't think there'd be any use for musketmen if they were weaker than the already are, due to the huge change in combat odds from a small change in relative strength. It's the same reason you cannot sensibly try to take a city with 30 odd warriors, even though they are dirt cheap. As for the upgrade argument, having vast numbers of a unit generally makes this prohibitively expensive.

    2)It's a fair point, so maybe infantry should get a bonus against mounted units as well.

    The cannon definitely appears too late in my opinion and should arrive with gunpowder, or at the very latest, chemistry. It makes no sense formuskets and grenadiers to be relying on catapults.
     
  4. Pfeffersack

    Pfeffersack Deity

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    I think historically the problem with early muscets was that reloading them takes much time in the beginnings, while a skilled longbowman could easily fire about ten arrows per minute.
     
  5. Dyvim Tvar

    Dyvim Tvar Chieftain

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    I agree regarding the musketman. They weren't as awesome at the time. The Japanese had something similar to muskets, but the samurai archers were aktually stronger at the time. But musketmen really were cheap and easy to train, so they should be cheap in Civ IV as well. The invention of the rifle marks the point were all medieval weapons turned practically worthless, not the invention of gunpowder.
     
  6. Dyvim Tvar

    Dyvim Tvar Chieftain

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    Oh, and regarding the cavalry:
    I think cavalry should get a defensive malus, when defending in forests or jungles not a bonus. What good are mounted units in terrain other than plains or grassland anyway?
     
  7. BubbaYeti

    BubbaYeti Warlord

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    I suggest the following mod for cannons: have them available at Chemistry, and make the rescources necessary either iron or copper. I have also modded the aztec jaguar from strength "5" to "6", which makes them a lot more useful and balanced relative to the other early uu's. Both these changes can be easily made in the units xml file.
     
  8. Pfeffersack

    Pfeffersack Deity

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    I quite like this idea...tanks on hills or in jungle/forest (perhaps only if no road is present; would create an interesting decision for the defender, if he should road the tiles with vegeatation) would be another candidate.
     
  9. DraconisRex

    DraconisRex Chieftain

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    They're tasty when you run out of supplies...
     
  10. Reprisal

    Reprisal Warlord

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    Remember that musketmen are also the first gunpowder unit available and when they attack, the defenders do not get any bonuses from walls and castles. Not exactly the best of worlds, but not exactly bad either. I still think that we should be able to build cannon at the same time as muskets, though...
     
  11. gettingfat

    gettingfat Emperor

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    The early musketmen in Japan were still stronger than the samurai archers. Nobunaga was most reputed for his musketmen team. Their shooting range and armour penetration power are still superior to bow and arrows. Their problems are slow reloading and susceptibility to rain (can't fire when the gunpowder is wet). Nobunaga partly compensated for it by dividing the musketmen into three groups and they shoot and reload in rotation, and setting blockades in front of them to delay the mounted warriors from approaching them.

    Musketman may be easier to train, but construction of muskets was actually not cheap at all. Muskets were historically somewhat more powerful than longbows and good cross-bows, but not by a substantial margin. Probably because the gain is not that much, ancient Chinese never went far studying the use of gunpower and were stuck with their already powerful cross-bows, and for a while England preferred using their famous longbowmen.

    The current setting I think is fine. Musketmen are supposed to be a moderate upgrade over longbowmen, but more expensive. It represents a transition from archery to riflry. I usually only built a few at the border to make sure the AI won't attack.
     
  12. flipk1d

    flipk1d Chieftain

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    getting away from the japanese love here, (the japanese only got muskets, not rifles for awhile mind you, from trading with the dutch mainly and portugese a bit, kind of not relevant)

    thats true, gunpowder units ignore walls, so the musketman is much stronger than the musketman in pretty much every facet of gameplay,

    historically, 100 longbowmen beat the crap out of 100 whatever NON rifled musket you wanna give em. period

    rifling and the enormous army sizes that developed made the medieval armies obsolete


    noone commented on the gameplay aspect of it, imagine being able to modernize your army in such a way that, with a little money, could turn around a losing game, and on the higher levels its hard to not be behind the AI with their bonus starting units.

    and yeah, cavalry should get either plus in plains/grass, or a minus in hills/jungle/forest/cities etc...
     
  13. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    Well, cavalry already recieve no defensive bonuses regardless of terrain. I don't think they need a defensive penalty, Cavalrymen don't always fight on horseback. Even by World War II cavalry were still powerful troops as mounted infantry. You ride into battle and dismount to fight, giving you the mobility of horses, and versatility of ground troops. Cavalry were indeed very common in World War II.

    Horses didn't completely phase out until vehicular transportation exceeded their benefits in cost and covering rough terrain. A decade later the concept evolved into Air Cavalry, using copters to transport soldiers in to a battlefield to fight on foot, which is still a dominant tactic today.
     
  14. necrosmith

    necrosmith Warlord

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    Weren't cannons actually developed before muskets?
     
  15. MrCynical

    MrCynical Deity

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    In a primitive form, almost certainly yes, though I don't think they became a reliable weapon for a couple of centuries. Civ 4 cannons would need their stats seriously reducing if they appeared that early though, since they'd be better than muskets at just about anything.
     
  16. Philips beard

    Philips beard Prince

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    ... and I think tanks should be more difficult to hit from air while hiding in forrest or jungle. Air units should then make less damage, or perhaps not hit at all.......
     
  17. LeSphinx

    LeSphinx Bachogwa

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    Against Musketterr, you have to use lots of cannon in order to weaken them...
     
  18. shadow2k

    shadow2k Emperor

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    I agree that muskets suck right now. Maybe they just need some bonuses, because they get...uhh...none?

    But I picked this part out about the cav vs inf because of the way you are comparing them. A two promotion unit vs a one promotion unit, one of the promotions being specifically geared towards the other unit your putting it up against. Not a fair comparison when talking about the strength of the actual units.
     

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