(2-WD) Early Naval Unit rework

[pineappledan]

Proposed Change:
Add a Galley melee boat at Fishing, move the trireme back to Philosophy, and remove the Dromon

Spoiler details :

Galley
available at Fishing
70
3
12

Trireme
Available at Philosophy
120
4
18

Quinquereme (Carthage trireme replacement)
Available at Philosophy
120
4
20
Heavy Assault
Pincer

Reasoning:

• The trireme currently comes just slightly too late, and it's a bit strange that units can embark before there is a proper boat to defend them.
• Closes the gap between trireme and Caravel, in which time triremes become desperately obsolete vs ranged attacks and city defenses.
• This resolves some strangeness with some civs with their interactions with the melee unit line:
  • Polynesia has an ability that lets them build fishing boats with melee ships, but melee ships currently unlock 1 tech after fishing. In fact, there is another proposal to address this specific issue right now.
  • Carthage has an early trireme UU, which makes it anachronistic in ancient era, and it unlocks an entire unit domain before any other civ even can field units that can occupy the same tile type.
  • This also restores Carthage's incentive to go for the Sailing tech. Their UA currently takes the lighthouse off this tech, and the UU moves the unit unlock off this tech, leaving the tech barren, with only a wonder and a trade slot
• Dromons kind of suck. There's no great way to put it. They are an odd fit as a unit that everyone can build, since they are a repurposed, and very unique byzantine unit. Greek fire being a closely guarded secret and all. In actual gameplay they are extremely weak, and are relegated to barb hunting on coastal tiles.
• If naval melee unlocked as a unit line in medieval, that would actually make medieval feel comparatively more fresh. Aside from that, the dromon won't be missed much as a precursor for the galleass.

 

[azum4roll]

I don't see a reason to remove Dromons. You can always replace them with Penteconters.

 

[Rekk]

Ranged classical/ancient ships should be your best bet to deal with coastal Barbarian camps/barbarians.

In comparison, a melee ship is only useful for taking it barbarians in the ocean, rushing cities and bullying city states, all of which a ranged ship can do given the proper stats (if with land unit support when rushing cities).

As such, I think the galley is better placed as a ranged ship.

 

[Tekamthi]

I strongly agree with PD's motivation here -- I've tinkered for years with mods affecting naval game, especially early-game... its always felt an after-thought to the rest of the mod.

I agree as well that the current mix of melee/ranged early-on is pretty awkward. On the other hand, I have had some success with dromon's where I can find some room to maneuver -- I am hesitant to endorse removing them altogether.

My first impression here is that proposal is, at best, a half-measure, or otherwise misses the target PD correctly identified. Not sure if it will leave things in a better state, really.

imo VP needs to tie the early naval game to some kind of strat resource. Proposal title says it is "rework" but is truly just a few tweaks to a couple units -- this aspect of the game could really use a more significant rework.

 

[CrazyG]

I'm fine with the galley thing but strongly oppose removing dromon.

 

[pineappledan]

I don't see a reason to remove Dromons. You can always replace them with Penteconters.

Penteconters currently use the galley model.

As such, I think the galley is better placed as a ranged ship.

Ideally, melee ships would be able attack into coastal barbarian camps. Then they could perform all functions. That’s a tall order though.

Dromon could move back to become a unique Byzantine Galleass that unlocks early. Then we could give the cataphract to Persia as a unique horseman. That would be greater historicity for both units, and they would be unique unique unit class replacements — the only unique galleass and horseman in the game — while removing a unique knight and a spearman, unit classes that we have lots of already. That’s a separate proposal though.

 

[Tekamthi]

Penteconters currently use the galley model.

Are there no remaining blender experts involved with VP that could convert us a civ 4 ship?

They are an odd fit as a unit that everyone can build, since they are a repurposed, and very unique byzantine unit. Greek fire being a closely guarded secret and all.

I've always liked how the early war elephant was tied to ivory resource -- consider doing same with dromon and marble and/or pearls and/or coral and/or crabs. Thematic reasoning: greek fire is speculated to have possibly been derived from quicklime aka calcium oxide: calcium oxide is usually made by the thermal decomposition of materials, such as limestone or seashells: marble is metamorphic limestone, and pearls/coral/crabs all would have wiki's "seashell" content required to produce calcium oxide.

Besides resolving this "odd fit" via thematic resource link, having them lux resource dependant in the style of the war elephant and ivory would diminish the number of dromons on the battlefield, accomplishing a situational, compromised version of the proposal's outright removal of these units. Once made sufficiently "rare", we can safely buff them so they don't suck.

 

[CppMaster]

Penteconters currently use the galley model.

Can 2 different units use the same model? Icon is the main thing to differentiate between unit types anyway. I don't even pay attention anymore to the 3D model.

 

[Legen]

While I agree on most points, I disagree on the ones regarding Carthage:

• Carthage has an early trireme UU, which makes it anachronistic in ancient era, and it unlocks an entire unit domain before any other civ even can field units that can occupy the same tile type.
• This also restores Carthage's incentive to go for the Sailing tech. Their UA currently takes the lighthouse off this tech, and the UU moves the unit unlock off this tech, leaving the tech barren, with only a wonder and a trade slot

Moving the Quinquereme to Sailing causes issues with how the civ plays. Right now, Carthage can go Pottery -> Fishing with relative ease, settle somewhere on the coast, buy a quinquereme and use it to explore the coastline in search for more good spots to settle. This early unlock allows it to earn experience fast with the Reconnaissance promotion, which is specific to this UU, as well as tribute city states along the way. The Galley won't have this promotion, creating a dilemma on whether to delay naval exploration for the reconnaissance experience. Carthage is designed around an explosive Ancient Era and falling off fast in the following eras, it doesn't make sense for them to have this issue.

Also, Sailing is an unappealing tech for most civs simply by virtue of being a mainly maritime tech in the same tech column as Writing, Mathematics and Masonry; few civs have maritime incentives in the first place. Carthage actually has more interest in it than most civs simply because they value maritime trade routes and naval units more than the majority of the civs, especially with their incentive to settle alongside the coast. The Great Lighthouse is also very appealing to every maritime civ, and that includes Carthage after an old adjustment that made free buildings from a wonder to refund production if the city already had that building.

If the issue is that the tech still just doesn't provide enough for Carthage, we could try some other options, like moving the Great Cothon from Currency to Sailing. Since that UNW boosts lighthouses, Carthage can aim for this tech with lighthouses in mind, reviving one of the main intentions of this tech. I'm not sure that is needed, but it is an option if people see Sailing as really lacking for Carthage.

 

[pineappledan]

If people want Carthage to have an early boat that focuses on naval scouting, emphasizing Hanno the Navigator etc., they should get a bireme that replaces the Galley, the antecedent of the trireme.

If people want Carthage to have a strong naval conquest and tributing unit, they should keep the quinquereme and it shouldn't come earlier. Quinquiremes are an iteration and expansion of the trireme design.

Both are doable, and we have great art for both a bireme and a quinquereme, but having a larger, stronger, earlier, cheaper boat with exploration bonuses is trying to have your lunch and eat it too. It's not a decent representation of anything.
If you are waiting for 2 technologies to explore your coastline then you're doing it wrong. Your starting pathfinder is more than enough to find your next settling spots.
We specifically had to remove all of the Quinquereme's extra CS because it made tributing overtuned in the early game. If they were moved back to classical we could give the unit bonus CS again.

Amended OP for late classical, bully Quinquereme.

 

[Rekk]

we have great art for both a bireme

We have art (model) for a bireme that isn't the galley?

 

[pineappledan]

yup. It's a very handsome little ship in game. I use it in my phoenicia mod, currently.

 

[Rekk]

I wouldn't want to steal models from work you've incorporated for VP, but...

 

[pineappledan]

Then go for the heavy quinquereme option. That's what I favour. That's more 'Punic Wars', and gives Carthage a significant classical power spike:

Quinquereme (Carthage trireme replacement)
Available at Philosophy
120
4
20
Deep ocean penalty
Heavy Assault
Pincer

 

[Rekk]

I wouldn't want to steal models from work you've incorporated for VP, but...

I will if it makes VP better

 

[Jhang]

I have a modmod model I have been experimenting with, that takes the modern era ship balance (submarine/destroyer/battleship/carrier) and replicates it into the previous eras. (anti ship/melee/bombard/flagship).

With anti-ship types being fast, frail, coastal, and short ranged, I had the ancient-classical replacement being the galley, since the speed and anti ship bias makes it great for harassing the coast and shipping lines, but a focused anti barbarian effort would eliminate them.

I don't think this needs to be an anti-ship proposal. But with some of my early findings, I think Galley works best as an early ranged that upgrades to a Dromon; that allows Triremes to absolutely run over barbarian galleys if you need to, but it also makes galleys good for harassing the coast (as well as not make them too fast).

 

[Stalker0]

The galley/ trireme split I can get behind. The trireme does come late and stays too long to be relevant in the later game.

Removing the Dromon seems overkill. It’s like the chariot archer to me, I use it rarely but it’s there when I do want it, it’s not doing any harm by it’s existence.

 

[Tekamthi]

I have a modmod model I have been experimenting with, that takes the modern era ship balance (submarine/destroyer/battleship/carrier) and replicates it into the previous eras. (anti ship/melee/bombard/flagship).

With anti-ship types being fast, frail, coastal, and short ranged, I had the ancient-classical replacement being the galley, since the speed and anti ship bias makes it great for harassing the coast and shipping lines, but a focused anti barbarian effort would eliminate them.

I don't think this needs to be an anti-ship proposal. But with some of my early findings, I think Galley works best as an early ranged that upgrades to a Dromon; that allows Triremes to absolutely run over barbarian galleys if you need to, but it also makes galleys good for harassing the coast (as well as not make them too fast).

I've done similar, though never settled on anything I really liked. There just isn't enough room to effectively move even 2 unit-lines around in the early naval game. I lean towards melee-only or melee-mostly for early naval, for thematic reasons. For gameplay reasons though I agree the ranged unit works well too. Attack-and-move melee is another possibility that seemed alright in experimenting.

 

[Rekk]

As written, this proposal leaves only Carthage with an warship at Sailing.

 

[pineappledan]

As written, this proposal leaves only Carthage with an warship at Sailing.

I amended the proposal, so no one gets a warship at sailing

The galley/ trireme split I can get behind. The trireme does come late and stays too long to be relevant in the later game.

This proposal also has the side benefit of a 2nd late-classical unit. Classical combat gets very stale very fast, because almost all the units unlock in the first line, and the late classical has a very high cost, making it one of the slowest eras to get out of. This currently has the result of freezing combat dynamics in amber for dozens of turns.