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2020 US Election

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Lexicus, Nov 13, 2018.

  1. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Ah yes...interruptus.

    @onejayhawk What makes you think that all those prosecutors are wrong and lonely Barr is correct? And today it was revealed that Trump asked McGahn, after the report came out, to publicly say he, Trump, had not obstructed justice. McGahn refused to do so. Twice.
     
  2. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Who lied about what non crime? Obstruction of justice does not require an underlying crime. It is obstruction to hinder an investigation.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/outl...ther-underlying-crime/?utm_term=.db9df68a6570
     
  3. onejayhawk

    onejayhawk Afflicted with reason

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    This stongly and negatively reminds me of the 97% of all scientists line you here concerning climate change. The group has a common interest in removing Donald J Trump from the Oval Office. Pass me some salt.

    J
     
  4. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Stop being silly. You first said that the obstruction chargers were in the minority and were wrong; now you say they are in the majority and are still wrong. Obstruction has a pretty clearly defined legal threshold involving three steps. It is not like the murky situations around murder etc. Of the ten situations Mueller described as obstructive, which ones failed on which of the three criteria? I know that you don't want Trump to have committed obstruction, but just saying he didn't doesn't make him innocent. The charge has to fail on the merits. Can you point out where the charges fail?
     
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  5. onejayhawk

    onejayhawk Afflicted with reason

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    Where did you get this quote, because that is Mueller's only job?

    What is not Mueller's job is exonerating the President or anyone else.

    Screwy article by someone trying desperately to salvage something. First, there does have to be a legal investigation and that is not a given. Second, the investigations in the article did have a crime, so the article is a large red herring. It is commonly understood that lying to the FBI is a crime, even if it is not about the crime they are investigating. However, this assumes the FBI has a crime to investigate. They do not have a right to ask questions for no reason.

    Understand that Trump always knew he is innocent. He rightly assumed this was all a political ploy.

    You are mixing apples with oranges. I said the belief that Trump has committed impeachable crimes is likely a minority opinion, in the USA, at this time. Another large minority opinion is that it is all an attempt to reverse the 2016 election to whatever extent possible.

    The problem with all ten of the instances is the intent to obstruct. Given the overall level of cooperation, it's rather silly to think that obstruction was intended at any point. Firing Comey, for example, is amply explained by Comey's open insubordination. Trump knows he's innocent and he is loudly saying so and complaining that the whole thing was taking too long. That's annoying but not obstructive.

    As noted above, there is an open question about the first element. Mueller himself may be at fault.

    J
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
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  6. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Deity

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    All of these are thin assertions by you and the president. There was a legal investigation, if your stance is that it was an illegal investigation when it comes back that the IG decides the FISA did start this on good information will you agree to the reality that this president tried to obstruct that investigation multiple times?

    Finally if Trump is innocent and was just intentionally trolling the entire left wing, FBI, CIA, and DOJ of the US for what? fun? entrapment? anyways regardless that in itself is indicative of his inability to lead and he should be impeached for that action since it implies he is trying to subvert the government in it's entirety and lead to intentional conflict among ourselves.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
  7. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    The Trump campaign has been lying about 'collusion' (or conspiracy). I understand the charge can be made in the absence of a crime, it just becomes problematic when the lying didn't hide a crime. If an innocent man accused of murder lied about something did he obstruct justice? What does justice demand in that situation? The innocent man has already suffered enough and now we'll punish him for the lie?

    And on top of that is the partisan political nature of this entire clown show with the Democrats sending the dirt they gathered on Trump to the FBI before the election to stoke an 'investigation' while complaining about Russians helping Trump by sending dirt on them to wikileaks. Which is worse? Unless something else comes out I think this is a loser for the Dems.

    If the President knows an investigation is barking up the wrong tree and tries to shut it down, did he obstruct justice? Not that Trump did shut it down, but he obviously was unhappy and tried to get rid of people he thought were antagonistic. The deep state and all that... The FBI was spying on his campaign under Comey based in part on Democrat dirty tricks. I imagine Trump was paranoid about the motives of people investigating him.
     
  8. brennan

    brennan Argumentative Brit

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    It is a paraphrasing of Mueller's explanation on page 1 of volume 2 why he "determined not to make a traditional prosecutorial judgment" in line with the opinions of the Office of Legal Counsel that " “the indictment or criminal prosecution of a sitting President would impermissibly undermine the capacity of the executive branch to perform its constitutionally assigned functions” in violation of the constitutional separation of powers.”

    Then how could Barr possibly declare that the report exonerated the President? Particularly when the last line in the conclusion states the exact opposite.
     
  9. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Regardless of that, though, "obstruction" is a rather underwhelming battle-cry. Didn't it used to be "treason!!!"? I am not following this at all - only reading posts here - but it seems that this isn't leading anywhere. That the core figures in both parties seem to be immune to justice has been clear for a long time now, no?
     
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  10. brennan

    brennan Argumentative Brit

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    The impeachment of Bill Clinton was over perjury and obstruction of justice. Surely no Republican would countenance applying a double standard here...?
     
  11. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Sure, yet do you recall how many years ago this was? I was a student in my first year of university then... Now the polarization is hugely higher. Doing the same thing isn't possible - and not just due to inherent and real differences in how the two parties vote and act imo.
     
  12. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Yes, partisanship is quite a bit higher since Newt decided to go after Clinton for perjury
     
  13. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Deity

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    I was about to mention him and how this streak of politics started and degenerated.
     
  14. onejayhawk

    onejayhawk Afflicted with reason

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    What? If there is a question in there, please clarify what you want to know.

    Fun could be exactly how it started. Trump made serious noises about running in 2008 and started up again after the 2012 election. A bunch of Intel wonks started discussing him over drinks and decide to pull together whatever is within easy reach. If nothing else, the Donald is entertaining to watch. After that, it's a topic for discussion and new tidbits are prized. Since it's not a real investigation, no one is paying a lot of attention to the rules. At some point, possibly weeks or months later, someone starts a file and things grew from there. This is all speculation, but it explains why so far along that they could set a honey trap for Papadopoulos in July of 2016 when most claim the investigation began. Names like Joseph Misfud and Steven Halpern crop up, though chances are that your casual NTY reader or CNN watcher never heard them.

    What we know is that James Comey was investigating Trump for no reason that he has ever been able or willing to show. That is why AG Barr is talking about the origins of the investigation. That is why some think that James Comey may go to prison, see below. It may have started as water cooler small talk, but it turned into a massive invasion of privacy.

    In that case, just to be clear, decisions about prosecuting the President is Mueller's only job. So, your paraphrase is not just misleading, it's completely backward.

    You are also paraphrasing Barr. He's more careful with his words.

    J
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
  15. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    There's a real divide here: I think that "Mueller would not forward a recommendation for prosecution, even if he thinks that the law was broken" is the mainstream interpretation. So, the fact that he didn't recommend prosecution doesn't mean anything.

    My doctor's head nurse didn't write me a prescription for antibiotics. This says nothing about whether she thinks I have an infection.
     
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  16. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    Okay, let's cut to the chase. In your opinion, what was the origin of the investigations into the Trump campaign?

    I'm certainly no fan of the security services and rarely believe statements made by them without corroborating evidence, but so far there has been a consistent line that there were counterintelligence* investigations into the Trump campaign that were opened due to a pattern of activities that appeared to indicate possible links between individuals in the Trump campaign and the Russian government - which appears to have been engaging in a pretty robust covert campaign against Clinton in favor of Trump.

    *Counterintelligence investigations are not criminal investigations.
     
  17. onejayhawk

    onejayhawk Afflicted with reason

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    If that is the mainstream interpretation, it could not be more wrong.

    To use your analogy, Mueller is the Doctor. It's his job to recommend medication, so declining to do so says a great deal. In this case, we also have a pill happy, over-proscribing Doctor who thinks drugs solve all problems, declining to proscribe.

    J
     
  18. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    The only thing it says is that Mueller actually took the Nixon-era OLC memo saying the President can't be indicted far more seriously than such a rubbish memo has any right to be treated.
     
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  19. onejayhawk

    onejayhawk Afflicted with reason

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    In my opinion, no one knows and no one ever will. The reason is that it did not start as an investigation but as idle talk. Since investigations are supposed to start with probable cause that a crime was committed, that is a problem.

    It literally could have started in 2008 when Trump first made noises about running. Collecting stories to tell over drinks is a traditional pass-time and Trump is a great source of such stories. At some point, someone started collecting the stories and started keeping an active file. What ever the starting point, things were well seasoned by the July 2016 date that is commonly claimed. That's when a CIA style operation planted a cover story on George Papadoupolos. The only thing they ever had was the discredited Steele dossier. That did involve collusion with Russians, by Steele.

    J
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
  20. brennan

    brennan Argumentative Brit

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    This is total bollocks J. His report literally explains why he is not going to make a decision about medicating and says who should make that decision.
     

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