2020 US Election (Part One)
- Thread starter Lexicus
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Berzerker
Deity
Wont forgiving that debt in effect constitute a subsidy from the working poor to the educated elite?
Narz
keeping it real
It would kinda suck for someone who just finished paying off their student loans. Basically punishing them for being responsible.
Better to just give everyone $1,000/mo.
Better to just give everyone $1,000/mo.
Berzerker
Deity
thats Yang's idea...but I'd still prefer means testing that too
Ajidica
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Am I terrible for not liking a flat student loan forgiveness program? I mean, I worked hard to pay off my loan quickly and would feel a bit cheated if I had just been lackadaisical about paying it I would have gotten several thousand dollars free from the government.
Plus, there are people who get majors that are literally useless and then complain about how they can't pay off loans. For example, the daughter of one of my mom's friends spent seven years at a very pricey small liberal arts college to 'find herself', and graduated with a BA in Womens Studies and a minor in Art Therapy. Small wonder she can't find a 'decent' job.
I'm all for changing the law so student loan debt can be dispelled in bankruptcy, government support for refinance plans, and an expansion of loan forgiveness if the person goes into public interest work; but I'm no fan of straight up loan forgiveness.
Zardnaar
Deity
Here one partys ideas was you pay a dollar and we we match it.
The other was interest free loans while you are in the country. It was situational what one was better but the second won.
My personal one is free education cutting numbers to afford it or certain degrees are free for what the country needs ( teachers, nurses, etc).
The other was interest free loans while you are in the country. It was situational what one was better but the second won.
My personal one is free education cutting numbers to afford it or certain degrees are free for what the country needs ( teachers, nurses, etc).
Quick answer, no. I think it teaches the wrong lesson. Means based relief I can go with, but a flat forgiveness no.
hobbsyoyo
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I won't benefit from reparations directly but I wouldn't begrudge African Americans for getting it. In fact I'd celebrate because an injustice would have been righted and more importantly for me, the economy would likely boom. Granted, student loans are not even remotely comparable to reparations in terms of social justice so this is a vacuous argument. Still, should something like this pass, all I can say is to find the charity in your heart and be happy for others even though it doesn't help you.*
I think the biggest problem with a flat forgiveness is that it needs to be paired with massive reform of the entire system. Otherwise you've not fixed the problem and potentially exacerbate it by creating a moral hazard of rewarding people who did make bad decisions and thereby incentivizing the behavior. The other problem is that I doubt he's thought it through. I have not dug into this particular position but in 2016 my biggest problem with Sanders was how extremely vague he was with his pie in the sky promises. Nothing seemed grounded in reality and I don't think this is either.
On the other hand, this is clean and fair to everyone with loans. The problem that all means-testing have is in the execution - it's always going to seem arbitrary and even capricious to those on the wrong side of the lines that means-testing draws. This program neatly side steps that issue entirely which means it will be the lowest-friction execution and therefore ultimately less wasteful.
We already have loan forgiveness programs that are means-tested and the government and the companies it hires to execute them have so bungled it that hardly anyone qualifies. It's a giant waste of time on behalf of the applicants and money on the part of the federal government to manage the program. Of course this is by design on behalf of the loan servicers (who were bizarrely chosen to administer the programs) and just because it was run poorly before doesn't guarantee similar results in the future.
I liken the proposal to universal income which I also believe should be given to everyone regardless of means. It's the most fair and cleanest way to do it.
*Let's be real - it ain't happening
Estebonrober
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Over the past couple decades, real median wages for college graduates have either stagnatedor declined, even as the costs of achieving and maintaining a middle-class lifestyle have gone through the roof, especially childcare, health care, housing — and of course, college tuition. To be clear, the only reason I graduated with so much debt was I had the privilege of attending a pricey private university. But had I chosen to attend a public institution, I likely would have graduated free and clear. That’s not the case for young people today.
https://www.vox.com/first-person/20...e-millennials-cancel-student-debt-forgiveness
There are all sorts of good points in the article, but first and foremost is that the debt laid at my generations feet for the return we are getting is terrible. The reality that without that degree we are truly lost makes it worse. My dad had an 8th grade education and retired from being treasurer of a state university, he wouldn't be allowed to teach kindergarten these days.
I agree the entire sector needs reform along with loan forgiveness though.
You need some sort of curricular reform so that such degrees are not on offer, as well as the cultural change that ideally would go with it. It's a bloody con.
hobbsyoyo
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I want people to be able to study the things they like. I prefer a society that directs more of its resources to enriching the lives of their people and giving them control of their destiny over one that spends half of its discretionary dollars on war. We are a rich society and can afford it if some people make decisions we don't agree without having them go into financial ruin for it. And as noted, you really do need a degree to tread water economically for the most part. Some people may not choose an economically viable degree program but hey, you know what, I don't care. That's their life. We can afford this. Same with health care.
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Well, for healthcare I suppose you need the same cultural change… some people die for lack of medicines and treatment while others get cosmetic surgery for tens if not hundreds of (thousands of, Sommerswerd) dollars.
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That is a pretty ridiculous statement. By 2007 McKinsey had over 10,000 employees on its way to 27,000 by 2018.
Do you know why to took a job there?
Do you know what he did while there?
Who were his clients?
Did he offer any benefit to his clients?
Why he left?
How long did he actually work there?
Sometimes working for a company like McKinsey can illustrate the worst of business and change people's opinions. You are awfully quick to pronounce judgments that are shallow and rooted in thoughtlessness. Just sayin'.
Estebonrober
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Making America realize this and break the lie of poverty on the social contract is the key to breaking through. . .
Lexicus
Deity
You're entitled to your opinion.
You're not terrible at all, its a pretty normal reaction. It's a variation of the "bootstraps" / social-Darwinism argument that so many people buy into.
The way I try to look at these kinds of situations, is resist the temptation to focus on what someone else got that I didn't get and focus more on what I can do to make the best out of my situation with what I have, whatever that is. It is very easy to adopt the line of thinking that "Well I suffered, so others should suffer too or its not fair!"... or "I was smart enough to do things the 'right way' so if others are too stupid to be smart like me then they deserve to suffer!"
Depends on how you define "from" as @Lexicus often points out. Also, since the working poor are mostly exempt from income taxes... not really? But ultimately, sure... if you want to go there, yep, the plan is basically no change from what we already do, right? if you look at it that way, it's just a different version of what the government has always done.
People who got cosmetic surgery (or any surgery FTM) for "tens if not hundreds of dollars" are the same people who "die for lack of medicines and treatment "
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Socrates99
Bottoms up!
No, but any time a policy is created to benefit people there's always going to be someone who got screwed by the old system. Think of moving to some type of UHS, for example, people who'd been over paying premiums or got sick from cutting meds or didn't get regular health checkups and wound up with some preventable catastrophic condition are screwed but at least in the future others won't be screwed over.
A student debt jubilee would be a massive boon to the economy. Think of the things you would have spent that money on if you hadn't had to pay it. A bigger house, a new or better car, computer, appliances, maybe a boat or vacations, etc. That's money going into the economy to pay for tangible items that create jobs.
I get not being happy about not personally benefitting but it's no reason to hold a grudge against those that come after you. It's similar to Boomers who got to finish school nearly debt free before tuition spiked 500% (or being able to get a good middle class job without college at all because it wasn't necessary back then) asking millennials why they're complaining about student debt and not wanting a solution for it because it doesn't personally benefit them.
Nope, the poor already get some pretty decent aid and the "elites" didnt have to borrow in the first place. Its rewarding the middle class who pay taxes but generally get very little in return.
Lexicus
Deity
It's not terrible, but it's the equivalent of an old man being angry because he had to live his life as a slave and some five-year-old kid just got freed by the federal troops.
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