[Vote] (1-25) Proposal: Cooperation buff

[Recursive]

Voting Instructions
Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" if you'd be okay if this proposal was implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if this proposal wasn't implemented. You can vote for both options.

All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.

VP Congress: Session 1, Proposal 25
Proposer: @notaspambot
Sponsor(s): @Recursive
Previous Discussion Thread: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/33-proposal-cooperation-buff.679540/

Proposal Details
Overview:
Cooperation is a follower belief that grants +5 to all base yields in a city upon population growth. It was nerfed several patches ago and its values decreased from +10 to +5, due to it being considered highly powerful in the hands of an AI, although not necessarily for humans. It has remained rather mediocre and uncompetitive with other follower beliefs since then. This proposal seeks to partially revert that nerf.

Proposal:
+5 to all base yields every time a citizen is born in the city. Bonus scales with era.
+8 to all base yields every time a citizen is born in the city. Bonus scales with era.

Addendum:
Base yields refer to: Food, Production, Gold, Science, Culture, Faith
In addition to the buff, the other goal here is to also get it an even value so it doesn't conflict with Epic speed.

 

[Stalker0]

We have actually tried this back in the day with VP, and its not a viable path. Its just too good for the AI, who recieves massive growth bonuses.

The only real way to balance cooperation is to add in some non-growth bonus. Maybe something like "+100% to all city connection benefits" or something. But unfortunately this has to be a no for me, even though I do agree that the belief is weak in human hands.

 

[notaspambot]

I did offer to amend the number in the original proposal, but I'll have to defend things as is, I suppose.

Remember that the value was +10 to all base yields pre-nerf. The proposal is only a partial revert of that and still a 20% nerf compared to before.

 

[Rekk]

We have actually tried this back in the day with VP, and its not a viable path. Its just too good for the AI, who recieves massive growth bonuses.

The only real way to balance cooperation is to add in some non-growth bonus. Maybe something like "+100% to all city connection benefits" or something. But unfortunately this has to be a no for me, even though I do agree that the belief is weak in human hands.

Do AI cities in your current games have more population on average than human cities, taking policies/religion/etc into account?

 

[Slyceth]

This is the only religion bonus that does not make you have to do anything with your religion. It stands out, I think it should be removed entirely.

 

[Rekk]

This is the only religion bonus that does not make you have to do anything with your religion. It stands out, I think it should be removed entirely.

See all of the other non-building follower bonuses.

 

[glaivemaster]

I'm of the opinion that if it's too weak for the human to use and too strong when the AI uses it, it needs a complete rework. Surely?

 

[CppMaster]

I'm of the opinion that if it's too weak for the human to use and too strong when the AI uses it, it needs a complete rework. Surely?

Not necessarily. For example, OP promotions benefits human much more than AI, but we still keep them, because they're fun.

 

[azum4roll]

I vote yes. AI does NOT have a massive growth bonus anymore. They only get instant food from less than half of the ABC sources, and those are spread across all cities. They also have 0% growth bonus.

 

[pineappledan]

I'm of the opinion that if it's too weak for the human to use and too strong when the AI uses it, it needs a complete rework. Surely?

Yes, which is a thing I have already done in my more beliefs rework package.

I ought to put integration of that up for a vote...

Abstained from this vote because I already hate this belief so much I destroyed it in my own modmod, lol. So it makes no difference to me what numbers you set it to.

 

[CppMaster]

Abstained from this vote because I already hate this belief so much I destroyed it in my own modmod, lol. So it makes no difference to me what numbers you set it to.

How about proposal to remove or change completely this belief in the next session?

 

[ma_kuh]

Just like there's a border-blob strategy (with lodge + monument + Expanse), I feel like a population-boom strategy (granary + council + Cooperation) should exist through policy and religion synergies. I'm not saying Cooperation is in right place for that now, but it seems poised to be that key, at least at the pantheon stage. I'd be sad to see it go.

 

[Stalker0]

I don't think we need to remove cooperation, the key is just adding a rider on top of it. The growth part I think is solid, we can just add a non-growth part to it as well to balance it out. That way there is no AI imbalance, but we can bump it up to make it a competitive belief.

Similar to how the culture follower belief tgives 1 culture per 3 followers, AND +2 faith for a specialist. We used to try 1 c per 2 followers and it was just too much, so we introduced a non-scaling bonus to round it out.

 

[pineappledan]

What I did in my mod was remove Cooperation and split veneration into 2 different followers:

(Follower) - Indulgences

+1 Faith in a City for every 10 Gold per Turn it produces, capped at half the Followers in the City.​

10% of the cost of Faith Purchases in this city is converted into Production and Gold.​

(Follower) - Gurukulam

+1 Faith in a City for every 5 Science per Turn it produces, capped at half the number of Followers in the City.​

10% of the cost of Faith Purchases in this city is converted into Culture and Food.​

 

[Circe]

What I did in my mod was remove Cooperation and split veneration into 2 different followers

Well, Mandirs got the Cooperation growth yields and it became the AI's favorite pick, so it's kind of still there.
I'm in the camp that it's not as broken as it used to be, the AI tends to grow a bit faster early on but it levels out in mid-late game. It's kind of hard to tell how many yields you're getting from it compared to the majority of beliefs that have fixed returns. Orders, Veneration, and Cooperation all fall prey to this, and tend to be the best picks for certain playstyles.

 

[Recursive]

Proposal passed on November 1, 2022.