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2K/Firaxis responds to "Rascism" of Colonization

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - General Discussions' started by Bohemus, Jun 27, 2008.

  1. Bohemus

    Bohemus Chieftain

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    Here is a link to the original post in case you missed it yesterday:
    http://blackenheimer.com/sid_meier_civilization_racist_colonization_260608
    And here is the response from 2K.

    For seventeen years the Civilization series has given people the opportunity to create their own history of the world. Colonization deals with a specific time in global history, and treats the events of that time with respect and care. As with all previous versions of Civilization, the game does not endorse any particular position or strategy - players can and should make their own moral judgments. Firaxis keeps the player at the center of the game providing them with interesting choices and decisions to make, which has proven to be a fun experience for millions of people around the world.​

    Be sure to let these guys where you stand on this ridiculous waste of everyone's time
     
  2. Copywriter

    Copywriter Chieftain

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    Why did they bother responding to the guy anyway? I guess they felt they had to, but this blog is just one of billions out there. Nothing special. The blogger isn't educated, isn't a good writer and isn't popular. Moving on . . .

    It's sad that they felt the need to respond to some adolescent's cry for attention.

    Think I'll go post about how Mario Kart is racist as it implies that all Italians are fat plumbers who can't drive and like to "feel good" on mushrooms. :)
     
  3. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    ^^There is a good reason to write this... given that there will be some more nutheads saying the same stuff in the future, better to let is already written, even if for copy-paste reasons only ;)
     
  4. BCampbell

    BCampbell Chieftain

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    ...why don't they address the fact that you can't play as the natives?
     
  5. dwhee

    dwhee Chieftain

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    Good point. The original critic's claims were mostly just influenced by his own disgust over colonialism. He doesn't have a clue about the gaming industry.

    From the player's perspective, the inability to play natives is one aspect that might be viewed as a bit racist. My main complaint is that it makes it impossible to play a game without the AI present, which is different from all previous civ iv expansions unless you count barbs and such.
     
  6. eewallace

    eewallace Chieftain

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    Not any more so than the inability to play the barbarians in Civ, is it? (I figure that Sid won't let us play barbs because HE is having fun playing the barbs, as shown in the "funny screen shots" thread.)

    As to the author of the anti-Colonization rant, here's what I said about this over on the Escapist, where I first saw this story:

    Why would Colonization be any more disturbing that Civilization? I have to think that this author has actually never played either. And come to think of it, he could well have been traumatized by the board game Risk when he was a child.

    Either that, or when viewing the blurb about Colonization, he was overcome by a sense of European-American guilt because this particular iteration of the common conquer-the-world-via-your-computer theme involved what he believes HIS ancestors did that was not so nice. In that case, this author may want to check out Galactic Civiliations or Alpha Centauri or Sins of a Solar Empire where he can happily conquer and subjugate others without historical referents. Or, who knows? Maybe he'd just be happier in Webkinz world...
     
  7. Bohemus

    Bohemus Chieftain

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    I enjoyed occasionally creating a generic barbarian civ in some of my scenarios. Like how some folks used to set up the Celts to account for the various tribes throughout britain/france/scandavia in Civ 2 scenarios. But anyway, I think it would be kinda neat to have the option to play as the natives at least. There were a few good scenarios in on of the Civ 2 expansions that had a 'new world' type game where you could play as any number of tribes in the Americas. I think the scenario ended before the Europeans showed up though... More options are always fun, this doesn't make the game any more or less moral/immoral to me.
     
  8. frekk

    frekk Scourge of St. Lawrence

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    It's an RTS, but there was a game from the Cossacks franchise that dealt with this rather well ... American Conquest. You could play as most of the European powers plus the US, or, as one of a wide variety of native groups. And they were all pretty fun to play, the natives were all treated differently and there was alot of effort put into portraying each group (Europeans included) in a unique way. The artwork was outstanding for the time, too.

    It's not make-or-break for me - I enjoyed Imperialism alot as well as the original colonization - but it is a disappoinment. And, yeah, the tone with the marketing of the game and some of the imagery (like stars and stripes on Columbus' ships) is going to be a turn-off for non-Americans of all stripes because it gives the impression the game will give a fairly shallow and distorted historical treatment of Spanish/French/Dutch colonial experiences and motivations.

    That original article was just silly, but, it has brought up a few things to consider, political correctness aside.
     
  9. Crowqueen

    Crowqueen Token forum woman

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    Wasn't there a scenario where you could play as the barbarians, never settling anywhere but using gold pillaged from established civs to buy more units?
     
  10. Olleus

    Olleus Warlord

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    Yes, it was shipped with warlords iirc. One of the most fun senarios too. You had to kill everybody before they researched gunpowder/rifling as the most advanced unit you had was a trebuchet.
     
  11. MadScotsMan

    MadScotsMan The Ruler of Cattle

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    I loved the Discovering the New World Mod in Civ 3 warlords, and colonization and conwuering a new world is always fun. In the final game we might be able to play as some of the indian tribes, and maybe mod it to where we can play as any of them.

    Oh, and that guy needs to get some sexy time with a woman, play civ, or get off his high horse.
     
  12. dwhee

    dwhee Chieftain

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    The difference is that in colonization the "barbarians" are representative of the various native tribes of the Americas, as opposed to simply having one city arbitrarily named after a "barbarian" city. I would consider them quite different from the Barbarians in civ. Also note that 4 of the native tribes/empires in question are playable in normal civ.
     
  13. Panzeh

    Panzeh Chieftain

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    It's probably better that they are not playable, as it is difficult to get a player to just try and survive with minor raids rather than become a superpower.

    Having the Indians as nations on the same level as the European powers would significantly change the game to more of a war game imo which is not what Col is all about.
     
  14. frekk

    frekk Scourge of St. Lawrence

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    I can't see why having playable native powers would make it any more of a wargame than having playable colonial rivals. There's alot of stuff native groups like the Iroqouis can be doing besides making war; they can be expanding agriculture, building towns and recovering the population from the initial shock of diseases, doing diplomacy, trading, managing internal politics and factions, etc etc. Instead of independance, the end goal would be formal recognition by all the colonial powers, perhaps through repudiation of your chief European patron and independant dealing with the other powers (kind of like declaring independance, but different).
     
  15. Panzeh

    Panzeh Chieftain

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    I think it would be far too difficult to make a game where playing as the natives would be interesting without making it a pure fantasy scenario(e.g. natives driving off the European powers). After all, who wants to play a nation that starts kinda big and then has to survive the onslaught of disease and European conquest, just to scrape by to the end of the game? Playing as the natives really doesn't fit the bill of 'start small get big' gameplay that the 4X genre is known for and would probably be disappointing. Besides, there will be mods later that half-ass it and make up fantasy scenarios where the natives conquer Europe.
     
  16. frekk

    frekk Scourge of St. Lawrence

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    The Iroqouis would fit the bill alright, since they did expand (immensely) after the arrival of the Europeans. English guns greatly accelerated their conquest of native rivals and, for a time, they went from controlling a small patch in upstate New York to dominating much of the Great Lakes basin. And they were never really trying to drive off the Europeans ... they were very close partners with the English and sought to - well, did - achieve a standing in North America equivalent to any of the colonies. Until the Revolution, when they disintegrated in internal divisions over questions of which side to retain allegiance with. I think this group, at least, would fit well in the context of the game.

    The other groups might be difficult to portray, though.
     
  17. i_diavolorosso

    i_diavolorosso Chieftain

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    They should make some natives playable.
    I think it would be a win-win solution
     
  18. potatoe

    potatoe Chieftain

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    The problem with making the natives playable is that it would feel like an entirely separate game lumped in with the main colonization game. As a native there wouldn't be any "old world" to trade goods with or receive immigrants from, the entire founding fathers and gaining independence concept would have to be tossed out/reworked entirely, having expert specialists that produce refined goods out of the regular resources wouldn't be possible, etc., etc. Not to mention that it would be tremendously harder to have to fight off four other technologically and financially superior AI opponents in addition to other tribes that you may not get along with. So not only would it go against the spirit of the game but it just wouldn't be much fun, either.

    If you really want to play as the inca or aztec or native americans or whatever fighting off european nations then just play Civ4 (and if you really wanted it to be accurate then select the British/Dutch/French/Spanish as your opponents and give them a ton of techs in the worldbuilder).
     
  19. Greybriar

    Greybriar Chieftain

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    I liked what Troy at Flash of Steel had to say about Ben Fritz's comments:

    I just want Civilization IV: Colonization to be as entertaining a game as the the original Colonization was. So bug off, Ben Fritz! :mad:
     
  20. Soneji

    Soneji Prince and Great Steward

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    Col was a brilliant game, far better than the original Civ in my mind.

    I still listen to the midi music!

    The blogger cleary is uneducated and spiteful of history.
     

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