2nd and 3rd City

[sinimusta]

@Seraiel: With alpha beeline approach, you aim to trade for a lot of early and cheap teches right? Don't you worry about wfyabta limit or what is your way around it? Picking opponents with high wfyabta, winning early or vassaling/getting friendly with a good techer early? Do you recommend trading even for cheap teches from AI or purposefully saving trades for bigger teches?

Other thing that comes to mind is that deity AIs themselves get to alpha rather early and without a great start they can have it or at least have stated on it which lowers the trade value. Or is around 2000BC, which you mentioned, early enough to avoid this?

Sorry this is a bit off-topic but I got curious about this.

 

[Izuul]

I usually don't have Bronze Working for the first Settler. In 50% of the cases I even skip it and directly beeline Alpha because it's only 10T slower or so, but gives me a lot of techs instead of just one. I do skip a lot, basically everything that I don't need absolutely and find absolutely no way around it. If I i. e. start with Agri I usually only research Mining, then make a decision between TW + Pottery or AH, meaning I definately don't research all 3, and then go Writing -> Alpha.

Alpha costs 2.5x more beakers. BW usually takes 14-17T because we have little more than palace commerce whereas we typically have several cities and many more improved tiles when researching something like alpha or aesthetics.

Point is if you beeline alpha with like 15bpt it's going to take more like 20 more turns than BW.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

^ Just the kind of situation where trading becomes more relevant!

 

[Seraiel]

@Seraiel: With alpha beeline approach, you aim to trade for a lot of early and cheap teches right? Don't you worry about wfyabta limit or what is your way around it? Picking opponents with high wfyabta, winning early or vassaling/getting friendly with a good techer early? Do you recommend trading even for cheap teches from AI or purposefully saving trades for bigger teches?

Other thing that comes to mind is that deity AIs themselves get to alpha rather early and without a great start they can have it or at least have stated on it which lowers the trade value. Or is around 2000BC, which you mentioned, early enough to avoid this?

Sorry this is a bit off-topic but I got curious about this.

I sometimes tech very small techs like Fishing, Hunting or Mysticism myself, but for all the bigger ones like Sailing, Pottery or Meditation I trade.

Also, as long as you and the Civ you're trading with are in the lower half of the scoreboard, there is no WFYABTA and it's usually possible to get 1 or 2 Civs to friendly. Also, bulbing can help a lot with keeping up in tech.

Alpha costs 2.5x more beakers. BW usually takes 14-17T because we have little more than palace commerce whereas we typically have several cities and many more improved tiles when researching something like alpha or aesthetics.

Point is if you beeline alpha with like 15bpt it's going to take more like 20 more turns than BW.

I played a lot of Quick speed lately so I got the numbers wrong. I tested for you though and got this picture-series from a Standard / Normal / Pangaea that was without Huts / Events so exactly like the settings that are prefered in S&T's subforum:

The "awesome" start:



Settling 1S to get the silver of course would have helped a lot with my approach but I didn't do it because I wanted to show what I told.

Tech-path AH -> Writing:



2nd city 2500 BC grabbing a Luxury and being pre-roaded for the Traderoute. Settler was built at size 3:



Built a Library to run Scientists in the Capital which grew to size 4 before finishing:



Starting on Alpha in T42:



Alpha 18T later (T60) :



Same turn (T60) . 3 cities of size 5, 3 and 1, a Great Scientist and 2 Workers. 49 BPT would be possible with founding an Academy, but bulbing Maths for better chops and speeding up Currency could also be a good choice:



So not exactly Alpha 'til T50 like I said, but Alpha + a Great Scientist until T60 without Workerstealing and with a 0 commerce start. Barbs btw. gave my 4 Warriors 8 XP in total and the Gold of city 3 didn't even come online until the last screenshot so after Alpha.

 

[Izuul]

Not bad. I wouldn't dispute the effectiveness as long as one can fend off the barbs. I think it would be manageable in most Immortal games, and maybe even some Deity where the map is cramped or you have an AGG leader, etc. Barbs get frisky around 2400BC on Deity though, so any sort of real barb presence could cause problems.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You can also run afoul of situations where you have 3 out of flood plains, fish, livestock and grains, but no two cities each having them (or needing to settle one you can't tech while going alpha so early to block). While there are some beakers to be had via trading alpha and that can be powerful, there are some hammers lost during the early stages via not working the tiles, or lost cottage turns.

IMO beelining alpha like so is heavily dependent on one's ability to use it in trade. The ability to build research is nice but won't carry by itself.

 

[Strickl3r]

But if you really wanne trade and as TMIT mentioned that it is also a big factor when beakers might be low. Why not beeline Oracle? Imo that's faster than 1600 BC and you can use oracle pre techs as trade bait.

obv the map has to be cramped cause you wanne meet everybody early anyway so you can abuse alpha.

And I'm still on my point that this is a play for like 10% maps with a regular pangea, yes it's cramped, but barb archers are stil a threat, there are still corners like tundra or snow or tGW might e build next to you

€: barbs off don't count btw, ok i respect players who want certain results as best as it gets, but for a generell discussion i think we have to assume barbs are on their way into your borders at 2600 BC or was it 2400 BC i don't remember right now...

 

[Seraiel]

Of course barbs off counts, just like every other map-type, speed or other setting that's possible in Civ too.

Of course this is no strategy that's right always and in 100% of the cases, but it's neither one that's only suited for "the simple maps" like Fippy said nor is it for 10% of the Pangaeas like Strickl3r guessed.

It's the strategy for earliest Alpha, so earliest all basic-techs, earliest Currency and earliest bribes so it has great power, and what's interesting about it is that the dates at which the cities were founded actually are astonishingly correct like everything else that I also said.

And yes, it was a pleasure.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

But if you really wanne trade and as TMIT mentioned that it is also a big factor when beakers might be low. Why not beeline Oracle? Imo that's faster than 1600 BC and you can use oracle pre techs as trade bait.

Oracle is a bit stronger, but also unreliable, and that's even more true with limitations. I don't want to start that debate again, but on immortal/deity it can and sometimes will go pre-2000bc and you're basically going to hit a wall if you fail. Reload gambits are HoF stuff (sadly), but if you're trying your best to win risking a non-insignificant chance of mailing it in really hurts.

€: barbs off don't count btw, ok i respect players who want certain results as best as it gets, but for a generell discussion i think we have to assume barbs are on their way into your borders at 2600 BC or was it 2400 BC i don't remember right now...

Exact date depends when player settles 2nd city and AIs settle more to bring up the average. Even on deity AI timing has some variance past their 2nd.

 

[sinimusta]

@Seraiel

Thanks for the detailed answer. Might have to try that approach in some game. I think I'd have teched BW early on a map like that with lots of forests.

 

[Seraiel]

@Seraiel

Thanks for the detailed answer. Might have to try that approach in some game. I think I'd have teched BW early on a map like that with lots of forests.

You're welcome.

BW is a valid choice if one needs production over research, like i. e. when wanting to prevent a neighbour from getting metals (display tile-yields to see where Copper / Iron is before having the tech yourself) and very fast expansion with i. e. War Chariots or Immortals can get one in a sincerely good situation for the later game.

It's anyhow a gamble like the Alplha-beeline-approach also is and rushing very early at first enhances but then hurts the tech-level, as I've seen in my last game with Darius, where I conquered 8 cities until 500 BC and crawled towards Currency, something I had at 1300 BC with a standard 3 city no-rush game.

 

[Epov]

I find it totally ridiculous to say you can do that (beeline alpha like that) 50% of your games.
Maybe on Immortal i can see that, but on Deity..uhm..not so much.


e:just realized this was my first post here - sorry it is kind of offensive :-$

 

[Seraiel]

But it's true. 99% of my games are for HoF and HoF doesn't give bonuses and allows playing without Barbs. HoF also allows me to reroll starts as often as I want, so I can choose starts that have farming resources as Food. With both of that, the biggest reasons for research AH or BW are out of the equasion.

It's still only that in 50% of the cases I do research neither of them and simply beeline Alpha, because I sometimes play Civs with Chariot / HA / Axemen UUs, and then, AH or BW is mandatory.

What stays is that researching BW or AH usually delays Alpha and therefor hurts the teching-speed, while it contributes less to rushes or the overall situation after the rush than one would think, and I find that that is valuable information.

If others are wanting to play the game in a different way, I don't interfere with them, they do interfere with my chosen style though, and that is something that has to change and the reason for why I have to fight so often, which is, sad.

 

[Epov]

I guess it just depends on ones preferred game-settings
The OP asked a very general question and your first post to me sounded like you would call this a very general strategy for "your random civ game".
When i think of my "random civ game", i wouldnt count on:
-Being one of the best Leaders in the game (decent starting techs/creative)
-Having a real easy spot to defend/prevent the Barboons

With a creative leader the decision "bronzeworking or early writing" may be 50:50, I'll say that but you even talked about oracling currency after that. How do yo do that with a normal start/civ? The answer is: You don't. (as your Screenshots show)
If you prefer to play really strong starts and really strong civs thats totally fine, but you dont go around calling warrior-rushing on high difficulty levels a "strategy" (because the only civ that can do that would be inca), do you?

 

[Seraiel]

Am I being tested and judged by you or what?

Having decent starting techs is not always given, yes, but some starts also have a connecting River denying the need for TW, some also have a Gold and and and. Also, argument of Creative or best leader in the game is superflous, both cities in this case had their good tiles in the 9-tiles-square and War Chariots didn't play any role at all.

Regarding Oracle -> Currency: I've very often already Oracled Currency after having gotten the techs through trade with having gone Alpha first. It's safer if having 1 or 2 Golds, but it's also possible without any as the screens show. 1600 AD is a date at which Oracle must not necessarily be gone on a standard sized map with 6 opponents. In my latest writeup with China I oracled Machinery 1000 BC on a Huge map with 10 opponents. Advantage with going Alpha instead of Priesthood of course is that one doesn't lose anything if one misses the Oracle, so it's a completely safe way. Having 1 or 2 Golds even allows for Oracle Civil Service in about 20% of the games, it's not that Oracle Currency without too much starting Commerce was out of the world .

Thx for allowing me to play how I want and I don't have to answer to that question because I ain't the one that seems to have something to prove.

 

[Epov]

You take this way to serious and/or personal for some reason that is beyond me.
I'm not sure what you mean by me having to prove sth, but to me it looks like we're playing different games here.

Also, argument of Creative or best leader in the game is superflous, both cities in this case had their good tiles in the 9-tiles-square and War Chariots didn't play any role at all.

Its obviously the starting techs and []fast library that matter, not the borderpop

you also wrote:

With a beeline of that sort, Alpha usually comes before T50

In the game you posted you have a generic, but still decent start and one of the best leaders to do this with but still fail to do t50 alphabet and the oracle is gone - I dont get it.

Regarding Oracle -> Currency: I've very often already Oracled Currency after having gotten the techs through trade with having gone Alpha first. It's safer if having 1 or 2 Golds, but it's also possible without any as the screens show. 1600 AD is a date at which Oracle must not necessarily be gone on a standard sized map with 6 opponents. In my latest writeup with China I oracled Machinery 1000 BC on a Huge map with 10 opponents. Advantage with going Alpha instead of Priesthood of course is that one doesn't lose anything if one misses the Oracle, so it's a completely safe way. Having 1 or 2 Golds even allows for Oracle Civil Service in about 20% of the games, it's not that Oracle Currency without too much starting Commerce was out of the world .

I know it can be done, and very interesting anecdotal evidence

 

[Seraiel]

You take this way to serious and/or personal for some reason that is beyond me.
I'm not sure what you mean by me having to prove sth, but to me it looks like we're playing different games here.


Its obviously the starting techs and []fast library that matter, not the borderpop

I argued against both already with saying that not every start needs TW due to rivers and 1 Gold is enough to deny the need for an early Library.

And we're playing the same game and I didn't write that you have to prove something but that you seem to want to prove something, like i. e. me telling wrong / stupid things.

you also wrote:

In the game you posted you have a generic, but still decent start and one of the best leaders to do this with but still fail to do t50 alphabet and the oracle is gone - I dont get it.

I know it can be done, and very interesting anecdotal evidence

I try to not react to provocations lately.

Obviously I could have taken way better leaders to show this like i. e. Willem, Lizzy or any CRE / FIN / IMP / EXP or PHI leader, so basically everybody but Tokugawa and similar.

T50 would have been doable with just a little more commerce and Oracle obviously is a weak argument because it goes randomly from 2500 BC to 800 BC. The way I posted doesn't risk anything, so what's your point?

 

[Grashopa]

This map is basically ideal for going straight for alphabet. Even if you don't think about it beforehand you have a good shot at doing it simply because rushing a cheap library makes a lot of sense. Cseanny went Ag-AH-writing. I went Ag-AH-Wheel-Pottery-Writing and got there a turn after him I think. The cheap granary + hooking up the gold in this case made up for the beakers invested.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=425729

I remember this being discussed before. I used to skip BW and was in love with academies so I'd tend to rush libraries and go alpha first a lot. However if the wheel and a 30 hammer granary can shave 3 or 4 turns off of getting to a ~T50 alphabet you really need to consider the effect of skipping early techs that can snowball your development.

On the flipside in my experience most of the time it doesn't make sense to snowball your rex (eg. BW and chopping to get 5 cities out around T50). Unless you are taking the hit to block and secure future sites since you are really slowing yourself down by delaying the big techs.

 

[Al Capone]

As early as possible. I only build the essentials beforehand, since an early city foundation will potentiate itself with time. Same I would with a third and maybe a fourth city. After my altogether fourth foundation I would severely consider building another city so early, since costs could then explode and set back my research rate.

I counted the turns of two games it took me to build the second city:

Germany, Epic, Noble: turn 60.
Russia, Marathon, Noble: turn 96.

Considering that Marathon-speed is really slow I was quite fast back then I guess.

 

[elmurcis]

On marathon speed fastest 2nd city I have done without IMP trait was with plain hill Stone center tile (can be marble too)+forested plainhill to work building workboat + coastal fish (to improve it same turn as finish workboat)... thats 10 turn workboat+38 turns settler (center tile 3 hammer... fish 5 food.. thats 300/8.. yes, should be 38 turns). 3-4 turns to walk, so can get 2nd city turn 51-52.. with FIN leader thats also good commerce to work while building settler.