(2R) Ratification Option: Cooperation and Mandir Rework

[pineappledan]

Ratification Option for: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/1-25-proposal-cooperation-buff.679987/

Problems:
- Cooperation is too hard to balance between human and AI, because AIs have large bonuses to growth
- We don't have enough beliefs for enough religions to support larger games
- There are no religious beliefs representing Sikhism

Solution:
- nest the yields on citizen birth within a building, so there is more to the belief that can buffer it.
- add more beliefs

Cooperation rework:

Internal Food and Production Trade Routes give +3 of their respective yields, scaling with Era.​

+2 Production if City has a Specialist.​

Clarification: Yields on citizen birth will be removed.​

Mandir Rework:

23​

+5,,,, whenever a new Citizen is born in the City, Scaling with Era​

1 Great Work of Music Slot​

+25% Religious Pressure in City​

+20% Religious Resistance in City (up from regular 10%) (only 10% resistance if (2-14) Proposal: Remove religious resistance from religious buildings passes)​

-1unhappiness from Poverty​

New Gurdwara belief/Building:

200 cost​

2Faith, 3Food​

+10%Food​

+10% Defense in the City​

+25% Religious pressure and -10% Religious Resistance in this City (no resistance if (2-14) Proposal: Remove religious resistance from religious buildings passes)​

-1Poverty in this city​

​

Moderator Action: This is a Ratification Option. Link added. If passed, because this is greater in scope than the original change, it will need to be ratified a second time. - Recursive

 

[Stalker0]

Considering the Gurdwara is basically the current Mandir with a defense bonus, it would probably be clearer to people to make that the mandir and then make the new building with the growth bonuses the Gurdwara. That would ease people into the change better. The building that they are familiar with works similarly to before, and the new buildign with the name that don't know has the new mechanics, so they will go and look it up.

 

[pineappledan]

I preferred the % food on the gurdwara. It makes more sense with the defensive bonuses as well. The food fits well with a Gurdwara's double function as a soup kitchen (langar).

I agree that it's a bumpier transition, but the specific bonuses have much stronger thematic ties to Sikhism, IMO.

 

[azum4roll]

Cooperation is too hard to balance between human and AI, because AIs have large bonuses to growth

They don't. The only thing they have now is the ABC bonus, and that's split across all cities.

 

[rkkn]

yeah people talking about the AI getting huge population growth bonuses has never lined up with my experiences

Venice surprises me with its population count, but that's it.
Hm. Maybe the AI *does* have huge growth bonuses, but it's masked by the fact that they are always building settlers that they don't even use.

Does cooperation trigger the second (or third or fourth) time that you gain a pop? After the pop count was reduced by building a settler. If it doesn't, then I think this growth bonus disparity thing is moot.

 

[CrazyG]

I'm able to mostly keep up with AI in population on Deity. Not in ancient/classical era, but I think that's a happiness thing. As the game goes on I steadily catch up.

Does cooperation trigger the second (or third or fourth) time that you gain a pop? After the pop count was reduced by building a settler. If it doesn't, then I think this growth bonus disparity thing is moot.

Effects like councils won't retrigger and I'm like 80% sure cooperation won't either.

 

[pineappledan]

the AI growth thing probably is a hangover from earlier times.

Regardless, I still prefer the instant yield on birth tied to a building. It's more interesting that way. The existing Mandir bonuses also just fit a Gurdwara better.

 

[Stalker0]

the AI growth thing probably is a hangover from earlier times.

Regardless, I still prefer the instant yield on birth tied to a building. It's more interesting that way.

why? what about it is any way more "interesting"?


I'll admit I was biased in the same way, thinking that AIs just had too much growth advantage. But it is true the AI has lost some toys recently, and maybe I have old thinking. If that's true, than seems best to just leave cooperation be. I do like an ITR concept though, so would be interested to see a version of that continue as a proposal.

 

[pineappledan]

why? what about it is any way more "interesting"?

I guess there's just more to a building? Putting it on a building allows me to add a flat onto the building which slightly pushes the birth yields. Feels more like a complete package.

 

[BaldSamson]

Ratification Option for: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/1-25-proposal-cooperation-buff.679987/

Problems:
- Cooperation is too hard to balance between human and AI, because AIs have large bonuses to growth
- We don't have enough beliefs for enough religions to support larger games
- There are no religious beliefs representing Sikhism

Solution:
- nest the yields on citizen birth within a building, so there is more to the belief that can buffer it.
- add more beliefs

Cooperation rework:

Internal Food and Production Trade Routes give +3 of their respective yields, scaling with Era.​

+2 Production if City has a Specialist.​

Clarification: Yields on citizen birth will be removed.​

Yes, yes, yes. Remove those +pop yields. However, don't we need some faith generation on a follower belief?

Mandir Rework:

23​

+5,,,, whenever a new Citizen is born in the City, Scaling with Era​

1 Great Work of Music Slot​

+25% Religious Pressure in City​

+20% Religious Resistance in City (up from regular 10%)​

-1unhappiness from Poverty​

Aww man, they're back... . At least it's on a building, so it's delayed.
Are there any other unused/underused religion mechanics floating around? Could we do +yields on DoF in lua?

New Gurdwara belief/Building:

200 cost​

2Faith, 3Food​

+10%Food​

+10% Defense in the City​

+25% Religious pressure and -10% Religious Resistance in this City​

-1Poverty in this city​

So this is just existing Mandir, - Music Slot, + 10% city defense? Seems too good. I'm against adding any new + city defense.

 

[pineappledan]

Yes, yes, yes. Remove those +pop yields. However, don't we need some faith generation on a follower belief?

Most beliefs don’t have Faith yields

So this is just existing Mandir, - Music Slot, + 10% city defense? Seems too good. I'm against adding any new + city defense.

Pretty much. The Mandir lost its secondary effect with the spy rework, so this gives it back a secondary bonus. The local version of Himeji’s defense modifier is currently unused code.

 

[pineappledan]

I can sponsor this

 

[Recursive]

Proposal sponsored by pineappledan.