[Vote] (3-09) God of War & Goddess of Protection Proposals

[Recursive]

Voting Instructions
Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" for every proposal you'd be okay with if it were implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if these proposals weren't implemented. You can vote for any number of options.

All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.

VP Congress: Session 3, Proposal 9
Discussion Thread: (3-09) Proposal: God of War & Goddess of Protection Tweaks
Proposer: @pineappledan
Sponsor: @axatin

Proposal Details
Current God of War:
Faith from Kills (225% of unit CS)
+10% Unit Production
+10% Ranged City Strike

Current Goddess of Protection:
21 from Palace, Barracks, and Walls
+10 HP healing in friendly territory

Problem:
God of War's yields are feast or famine. Unreliable pantheon
The unit production and city ranged strike aren't very noticeable, especially early game.
Goddess of Protection is the only pantheon that has 2 regular building bonuses, and they are both 2nd-tier buildings. It's a very strong pantheon once it is set up, but it's very slow.
2per city and 3 in the capital is pretty high for a pantheon. Ancestor worship just got nerfed for similar yields.

Proposal:
Move the barracks building bonus from Goddess of Protection to God of War

New God of War:
Faith from Kills (175% of unit CS)
+22 from Barracks

New Goddess of Protection:
+21 to Palace and Walls, and 1for every 15City Strength
+5 HP healing in friendly territory

Would require new code for the scaling with city defense ability.


VP Congress: Session 3, Proposal 9a
Discussion Thread: (3-09a) Counterproposal: God of War & Goddess of Protection Tweaks
Proposer: @rusbeh
Sponsor: @axatin

Proposal Details
Current God of War:
from Kills (225% of unit CS)
+10% Unit Production
+10% Ranged City Strike

Current Goddess of Protection:
21 from Palace, Barracks, and Walls
+10 HP healing in friendly territory

Proposal:
New God of War:
from Kills (100% of unit CS)
2 from Barracks
+15% Unit Production

New Goddess of Protection:
21 from Palace and Walls
1 from garrison
+5 HP healing in friendly territory
+15% Ranged City Strike

Rationale:
God of War is bad and needs more purpose to it. The 10% unit production had the right idea but was not enough to make it a worthwhile pantheon. The barracks faith bonus helps with some passive faith. The 10% ranged city strike was also too low of a bonus and feels better suited for Goddess of Protection. The garrison providing faith also feels great for Goddess of Protection as you want your military to protect and not be roaming around like in authority. I think 1 faith is enough as the pantheon has a lot of faith sources already. That way it also wouldn't hurt so bad if you needed to move your units away from the garrisons. The +10 HP healing in friendly territory is incredibly strong. Bit of a nerf to it without eliminating it as it also suits the pantheon.


VP Congress: Session 3, Proposal 9b
Discussion Thread: (3-09b) Counterproposal: Alternative God of War & Goddess of Protection
Proposer: @Legen
Sponsor: @Legen

Proposal Details
God of War and Goddess of Protection are adjusted as follows instead (changes from the original proposal in italics):

God of War
Faith from Kills (175% of unit CS), and Melee units heal for 10 points after killing a military unit.
+22 from Barracks.

Goddess of Protection
+3 from Palace, +2 from Walls.
+10 HP healing in friendly territory.

Spoiler Details :

The unit classes that will benefit from the "heal on kill" will be the same as the ones that benefit from Honor's Dominance: Recon, Melee, Gunpowder, Mounted Melee, Armor, Naval Melee.

Rationale:

This counterproposal focus on ensuring both pantheons retain strong alternative effects beyond their yields, which is a distinctive part of their current design relative to other pantheons. I don't think that the game needs more pantheons with strong faith scaling over later eras; at most, it is enough to ensure their faith output isn't too variable.

God of War's heal on kill is a natural addition to the pantheon's focus on killing units, reducing downtime during barbarian hunts. It is also a fun addition to its playstyle that doesn't lead to yield inflation and that remains useful when warring against a major civ, which this pantheon incentivizes you to do.

Goddess of Protection's yield issue is partially related to Walls still being a cost inefficient source of yields at 21. Production-wise, you generally spend 32.5 production for 1 or 1 per turn with the shrine and monument, and do so without a maintenance cost. Walls at a 21 are worth 97.5 with no additional yields, and with a maintenance cost, making them cost inefficient at their base 110 cost. This inefficiency isn't addressed by the proposed faith from city strength, as the extra garrison will cost 40 from a city at best, plus its maintenance cost. Simply adding an extra yield to the Wall makes it actually desirable to build, and compensates for the barracks' removal from the pantheon.

The slow founding speed concern can be addressed by adjusting the Palace's yield towards pure faith, instead of the current branching with culture; I don't think we need to add a long term faith scaling effect in every city at expense of the healing effect. Other scaling pantheons already exist, while this is the only standard pantheon focused on defensive capabilities.

 

[Stalker0]

People really need to take another look at Legen's proposal. I think its protection version is just bonkers OP. We already removed this very same idea from Ancestor Worship (+2 faith and +2 culture on one building is just too good) AND this one has the +10 healing which is way better than anything AW used to have.

The other two versions are much more reasonable.

 

[pineappledan]

I’m mainly concerned about the addition of another heal on kill effect. I don’t like how much stacking this does with Authority’s dominance policy, with the Jaguar or bushido. I think we have enough of these effects, and this is oversaturation. It will be another one of those free promos clogging up the unit panel as well.

God of War already has adequate scaling with the yields on kill; it was lacking a safe, early yield source, not a second on-kill effect.

 

[Zuizgond]

I’m mainly concerned about the addition of another heal on kill effect. I don’t like how much stacking this does with Authority’s dominance policy, with the Jaguar or bushido. I think we have enough of these effects, and this is oversaturation. It will be another one of those free promos clogging up the unit panel as well.

God of War already has adequate scaling with the yields on kill; it was lacking a safe, early yield source, not a second on-kill effect.

Fully agree. Heal on kill will be far too OP if combined with Dominance.

 

[Legen]

People really need to take another look at Legen's proposal. I think its protection version is just bonkers OP. We already removed this very same idea from Ancestor Worship (+2 faith and +2 culture on one building is just too good) AND this one has the +10 healing which is way better than anything AW used to have.

The other two versions are much more reasonable.

Ancestor Worship's original issue had to do with yield/cost ratio, as well as timing.

As stated before, you generally pay 32.5 for each 1 or 1 per turn. Councils cost 65 instead of the Wall's 110, meaning that Ancestor Worship turned them into a building worth 195 for only a third of the cost (i.e. 200% extra value). Basically, you had three buildings for the price of one. Meanwhile, a Wall costs 110 and generates no yields; giving it 2 means you pay 110 to get 130 worth in cost (~18% extra value), while incurring a maintenance cost. This translates into a much different timing between the two: by the time you spent 195 with AW, you get 4 + the Council's science, while the same amount with the proposed Goddess of Protection grants either 24 or 42, with no science and having a maintenance cost. The rate at which you develop your cities is much faster with the old Ancestor Worship than with the proposed Goddess of Protection.

And then, remember that the Council's timing matters, as part of its science comes from citizen birth. Being able to build it first in your cities meant that a civ with Ancestor Worship can accumulate some extra early science, and do so without sacrificing early culture or faith, compared to any other pantheon.

Another compounding factor for Ancestor Worship is that the Stonehenge grants a free Council, so you could pick the pantheon and immediately benefit from its Council yields by turn 30 or less. The only other pantheons that can pull off something similar off are Earth Mother, Goddess of the Home and Goddess of Beauty, and they don't provide as many yields as Ancestor Worship from doing that.

Last, Ancestor Worship's had a 20% Citizen into Faith scaling, making it a pantheon that also scaled throughout the game; it was really strong both as an early game boost AND as a lategame scaling; other pantheons are generally good only at one of them. Meanwhile, the proposed Goddess of Protection loses the extra 2 Faith per city that the Barracks would provide. You have a 3 Faith in the Capital to help founding, but gets only 2 Faith per city, with no other means to increase it. This means the proposed Goddess of Protection lacks lategame scaling, which is the price for improving its early game economy, and it is arguable whether the early economy is stronger than, say Goddess of Renewal (+2 from Markets and +1 for each 2 forest/jungle tiles worked) or Springtime (21 from Herbalist and +1 from plantations), who provide overall more yields and at a higher variety. My estimation is that the proposed Protection is about average in early yields and lacking in the lategame, leaving this pantheon to be carried by the healing effect; that's one reason I'm hesitant to lower it.

I’m mainly concerned about the addition of another heal on kill effect. I don’t like how much stacking this does with Authority’s dominance policy, with the Jaguar or bushido. I think we have enough of these effects, and this is oversaturation.

God of War already has adequate scaling with the yields on kill; it was lacking a safe, early yield source, not a second on-kill effect.

That's a fair concern. The issue I had with the original proposal was that your God of War provides very little outside of faith. Most pantheons provide a wider and more balanced variety of yields, and do so with a much more passive and consistent playstyle. As such, I found it hard to justify going for the proposed God of War when considering the alternatives. At the same time, I didn't want to bloat the pantheon (and the game in general) with extra yields, so I settled for an alternative effect, similar to how Goddess of Beauty does (only provides faith as actual yields, but gives Artist and Engineer GPP). Heal on kill feels as a natural synergy to this pantheon, and gives a reason to pick it over the usual yield-based pantheons. It is also a way to keep the pantheon distinctive, something that was being lost in the original proposal (no more 10% unit production, nor 10% city attack, i.e. warring bonuses).

It will be another one of those free promos clogging up the unit panel as well.

The Promotion Flags integrated into VP can naturally group promotions into sets (e.g. Shock I, Shock II and Shock III into a single icon), and God of War's proposed heal on kill can fit into the current set of "heal on kill" promotions (Dominance+Honor, Jaguar's promotion, Janissary's vanilla promotion). It won't bloat the unit panel for those playing Authority and/or Aztecs.

 

[pineappledan]

That's a fair concern. The issue I had with the original proposal was that you God of War provided very little outside of faith. Most pantheons provide a wider and more balanced variety of yields, and do so with a much more passive and consistent playstyle. As such, I found it hard to justify going for the proposed God of War when considering the alternatives.

Yup, I was receptive to that criticism during the proposal phase. That's why I increased the yields on Barracks to 2. Our 2 GoWar proposals are identical in every respect expect for that heal on kill.

I will say that, while I think we have enough of them in the game already, full stop, the thing that makes this particularly acute is that Dominance and GoWar are so close to each other for timing. I wouldn't agree with the addition of a heal on kill for a new Enhancer either, but at least there would be some space between the two.

Heal on kill feels as a natural synergy to this pantheon, and gives a reason to pick it over the usual yield-based pantheons. It is also a way to keep the pantheon distinctive, something that was being lost in the original proposal (no more 10% unit production, nor 10% city attack, i.e. warring bonuses).

the current GoWar certainly doesn't lack for distinctiveness; the problem is it's almost impossible to use. The 10% RCS for cities is a little too small to be noticeable, but it's big enough on the Celt's Bran (+25%) where you can feel it, so I feel no loss cutting it from a base promotion. The 10% unit production was also good, but it was more pure scaling, which GoWar already had with the kill yields. It's the part I feel less sure about removing, but I just don't see it carrying its own weight here. When you're picking pantheons you don't have enough raw hammers in your cities to make a 10% modifier feel valuable. You can get more than 10% by switching to working a plains tile instead of a grassland at that early stage.

A more appropriate place for the % unit modifier would be Hero Worship. The Great Altar reformation wonder gives % unit modifier already, but only in the city it was built. Could move it from the wonder onto the base belief itself. That founder is missing any consistent bonus, and the yields on conquest are exceedingly variable relative to other founder beliefs. It could use something to buffer it.

Something for next round I guess.

 

[Stalker0]

Ancestor Worship's original issue had to do with yield/cost ratio, as well as timing.

As stated before, you generally pay 32.5 for each 1 or 1 per turn. Councils cost 65 instead of the Wall's 110, meaning that Ancestor Worship turned them into a building worth 195 for only a third of the cost (i.e. 200% extra value). Basically, you had three buildings for the price of one. Meanwhile, a Wall costs 110 and generates no yields; giving it 2 means you pay 110 to get 130 worth in cost (~18% extra value), while incurring a maintenance cost. This translates into a much different timing between the two: by the time you spent 195 with AW, you get 4 + the Council's science, while the same amount with the proposed Goddess of Protection grants either 24 or 42, with no science and having a maintenance cost. The rate at which you develop your cities is much faster with the old Ancestor Worship than with the proposed Goddess of Protection.

And then, remember that the Council's timing matters, as part of its science comes from citizen birth. Being able to build it first in your cities meant that a civ with Ancestor Worship can accumulate some extra early science, and do so without sacrificing early culture or faith, compared to any other pantheon.

Another compounding factor for Ancestor Worship is that the Stonehenge grants a free Council, so you could pick the pantheon and immediately benefit from its Council yields by turn 30 or less. The only other pantheons that can pull off something similar off are Earth Mother, Goddess of the Home and Goddess of Beauty, and they don't provide as many yields as Ancestor Worship from doing that.

Last, Ancestor Worship's had a 20% Citizen into Faith scaling, making it a pantheon that also scaled throughout the game; it was really strong both as an early game boost AND as a lategame scaling; other pantheons are generally good only at one of them. Meanwhile, the proposed Goddess of Protection loses the extra 2 Faith per city that the Barracks would provide. You have a 3 Faith in the Capital to help founding, but gets only 2 Faith per city, with no other means to increase it. This means the proposed Goddess of Protection lacks lategame scaling, which is the price for improving its early game economy, and it is arguable whether the early economy is stronger than, say Goddess of Renewal (+2 from Markets and +1 for each 2 forest/jungle tiles worked) or Springtime (21 from Herbalist and +1 from plantations), who provide overall more yields and at a higher variety. My estimation is that the proposed Protection is about average in early yields and lacking in the lategame, leaving this pantheon to be carried by the healing effect; that's one reason I'm hesitant to lower it.

Is this was the end of the story I would agree with you. But not only do you have a solid pantheon for yields that is at least comparable to the old Ancestor Worship (though I agree somewhat falls short of), you STILL have the massive +10 healing. Like without any healing at all this might be a halfway decent pantheon, solid, always useful, never lets you down. But with the +10 hp healing now its busted.

 

[pineappledan]

Here's a hot take: Pantheons with bonuses to buildings Shouldn't be overly special.

There are certain civs that will inevitably augment X building already, or for some other reason prioritize that building and its tech, independent of what the augmenting pantheon does. If the building modified by that belief is too "special", it could alter the playstyle of civs that interact with that game component to a heightened degree. Like how Iroquois and Springtime already feel like a packaged deal. This is why most of the pantheons that augment X building also just give flat yields to Y improvement. Nice and boring, and at least in that pairing the obvious building augment might be complicated by not having the right resources around you, so you are confronted with a choice. So that's why adding a building onto GoWar's other zany abilities need to go away if the Barracks bonus is moved there. It's being demoted from 'wacky niche pick' to 'you were probably going to rush barracks anyways'.

There is room for weird, special pantheon bonuses, but it should be reserved for pantheons that don't augment a specific building, and thereby warp a civ's kit.

 

[Legen]

Is this was the end of the story I would agree with you. But not only do you have a solid pantheon for yields that is at least comparable to the old Ancestor Worship (though I agree somewhat falls short of), you STILL have the massive +10 healing. Like without any healing at all this might be a halfway decent pantheon, solid, always useful, never lets you down. But with the +10 hp healing now its busted.

I think you're really underestimating the importance of cost efficiency here. It is not enough to compare yields, it is also important to compare the cost efficiency of the building generating those yields. Especially so if it is from a building that is otherwise situational and have a maintenance cost, like the Wall. This is why players generally try to build Councils in every city, but neglect Barracks for a long time (especially before unlocking the Arena), despite both buildings providing 1 .

Another example, this cost efficiency consideration is why the Stele is considered to be such a powerful building, despite providing only an extra 2 for Ancient Era purposes. +100% extra value to the Monument, comes early and is on a building you generally want first in every city anyways. It is arguable if people consider it stronger than the Bazaar or the Longhouse, but most people would at worst consider it close to them, despite providing less yields than both. You can improve your builds a lot just by paying more attention to how cost effective your building choices are for their yields.

And, for a pantheon's yields to be solid, it is not enough to provide them at a good amount, it is also necessary for them to come at a cost efficient way. And Walls are far from being it. At my proposed values, the Wall would give about only a third of the cost efficiency of an old AW Council, and that before accounting for the maintenance cost further lowering this value, making the two not comparable at all.

Yup, I was receptive to that criticism during the proposal phase. That's why I increased the yields on Barracks to 2. Our 2 GoWar proposals are identical in every respect expect for that heal on kill.

I will say that, while I think we have enough of them in the game already, full stop, the thing that makes this particularly acute is that Dominance and GoWar are so close to each other for timing. I wouldn't agree with the addition of a heal on kill for a new Enhancer either, but at least there would be some space between the two.

I actually wonder, how many people go for Dominance second instead of fourth policy pick? When I tested locally before proposing it, I'd go Dominance fourth, so the heal on God of War wasn't stacking with it for most of the test. And, at a 10 heal per kill, it is a pleasant, but small benefit. Even when I finally got to Dominance, raising the heal to 25, it wasn't the powerful thing that the comments here are fearing, since the kill is only on one unit at a time. Often, I'd have multiple units wounded when hunting barbarians, and the fact that only one unit would heal 25 meant the downtime with them fortifying and healing wasn't significantly changed. Fun, but nowhere close to gamechanging.

Babylon becomes not just the civ with a unique wall, it becomes the civ with the unique wall that also fast tracks it to major healing bonuses.

Babylon is a lot better with Goddess of Wisdom anyways, compared to both the current and any of the proposed Goddess of Protection. I play mainly with Babylon, and I find it really hard to justify not going for Wisdom; the synergy with the UB + Progress's opener and scaler means Wisdom doubles up as a culture pantheon, surpassing what Protection can provide. Add to that the civ's +50% Great Scientist generation to the pantheon's +2 GSP and it is as if this pantheon was made for them.

As a bonus, the civ's 15% improved gold investments and the +2 gold on scientist specialists (UB effect) mean the Wall's cost is reduced to 37 when invested, close to the usual 32 on a Shrine/Monument from a generic civ's investment, and you can do so rather consistently. 37 to end with 237 (1 UB, 3 scientist, 3 pantheon) is extremely cost effective, and allows for a Medieval beeline (Education) to double Progress's culture from techs; this puts the 3 from Wisdom very close to being worth 3 when pulled off. Wisdom supports this strat much better than Protection (in any of the discussed versions), especially with the faster Academy in the meanwhile from the +2 GSP.

So, I don't see my suggested Protection making it mandatory for them. 2 on Walls don't compare to the 3 from Wisdom + Wall of Babylon's specialist slot (plus Progress's culture from techs), with 1 of that being from the city merely existing. And then, +2 Great Scientist generation is worth more for Babylon than the +10 healing, as the former actually builds towards their victory plan (boosted by their UA even). I don't intent to change how I play them if any of these proposals pass as a result. Protection would have to be buffed to insane values to make me reconsider it over Wisdom for Babylon.

Here's a hot take: Pantheons with bonuses to buildings Shouldn't be overly special.

There is room for weird, special pantheon bonuses, but it should be reserved for pantheons that don't augment a specific building, and thereby warp a civ's kit.

My take is that pantheons should be balanced between themselves, not based on the civs. If a civ is overly synergistic with a given pantheon, we tweak that civ instead.

Part of learning to play with each civ comes from understanding what synergies they have with the game's many mechanics, including beliefs. There's nothing wrong that a desert civ will often pick Spirit of the Desert, or that a civ that really loves Herbalists will really favor Springtime; that's thematic even. I don't think a pantheon should be weaker or uninteresting (or both) on the grounds that a certain UB or UA exists.

 

[pineappledan]

My take is that pantheons should be balanced between themselves, not based on the civs. If a civ is overly synergistic with a given pantheon, we tweak that civ instead.

Part of learning to play with each civ comes from understanding what synergies they have with the game's many mechanics, including beliefs. There's nothing wrong that a desert civ will often pick Spirit of the Desert, or that a civ that really loves Herbalists will really favor Springtime; that's thematic even. I don't think a pantheon should be weaker or uninteresting (or both) on the grounds that a UB or UA exists.

Definitely didn't say weaker, or unbalanced, just less interesting. Fewer zany bonuses like +% RCS on cities when a building gets involved.

 

[Stalker0]

I think you're really underestimating the importance of cost efficiency here.

And I think you really underestimate how powerful the +10 healing is. When we debated this pantheon on several threads, there was a section of people that thought that even though the pantheon was garbage for founding, it was STILL good enough, because the healing was so good that it was worth not founding a religion. Protection's only real weakness before was its early faith difficulties that made founding very difficult. That problem in this version is removed entirely, this is now a strong faith generator AND possesses the incredible ability it already had. That's what makes it OP.

Again, your not wrong that the bonus on the walls and not council makes it weaker than old AW's yields....I concede that point. But frankly all this pantheon really needed is a bit better of founder base with that amount of extra healing....and instead it got a heck of a lot more than that. PDan's version buffed the yields but also nerfed the healing in kind, whereas this version just takes both up a notch.

Its too much.

 

[Legen]

Definitely didn't say weaker, or unbalanced, just less interesting. Fewer zany bonuses like +% RCS on cities when a building gets involved.

Fair.

Still, I don't think it is merely about a civ augmenting that building. For instance, the proposed God of War may be picked by Songhai and Assyria simply because their UUs are on Military Strategy, the same tech as the Barracks. Militaristic civs in general will want to build the Barracks anyway, so all the proposed God of War are potential considerations for them; they don't need to be Japan or Zulu. And, of course, there's the Aztecs.

And then, Protection. Founding speed aside (which the proposals are trying to address), you don't actually need to have any bonuses to walls to want it, you just need the right type of neighbor greeting you. You really don't want to be neglecting Walls if you've found out that you spawned next to a crazy expansionist, might as well double up and worship Goddess of Protection. And then, I said before why the one civ with a Wall UB is actually better with a different pantheon (Wisdom).

Out of curiosity, do people go for Earth Mother as Ethiopia? Unique Monument, but the pantheon seems known to be relatively weak.

 

[Legen]

strong faith generator AND possesses the incredible ability it already had

No, it is not a strong faith generator. It will have enough faith for founding thanks to the capital, but every city will get only 2, halving the post-Ancient faith you get from this pantheon. Even the capital itself generates a bit less in the end (5 vs 6). And unlike most pantheons, the suggested Protection has no other source of faith. Most pantheons will be able to provide more yields, both faith and alternative, than Protection. This means Protection will be able to found, but be subpar at spreading the religion, and not that good at economic development. That's why I think the healing shouldn't be nerfed.

Is the +10 healing strong? Yes, I agree. But not to the extend you mention. I've often preferred Wisdom or Beauty because their GPP actually contribute with victory plans, and I've similarly favored Festivals, God of the Sea and Tutelary Gods because a stronger economy can outpace the military benefits of Protection's healing. And, of course, certain terrain based pantheons like Goddess of the Hunt can make or break your development, especially if going for Tradition and its food hungry Capital.

 

[Stalker0]

This means Protection will be able to found, but be subpar at spreading the religion, and not that good at economic development. That's why I think the healing shouldn't be nerfed.

So lets test this statement out. I've already argued that Protection gets its yields up quickly, but lets ignore that for the second and just look at scaling.

Lets assuming a nice 6 city setup, not too tall, a good number for that early founding part of the game. So this version of Protection generates +12 CPT and +15 FPT. We will consider this the "baseline". Lets see how other pantheons stack up.


Ancestor Worship: The most direct comparison. Same CPT, will take a bit longer to get to that FPT but does get there and eventually outscales it. Definately in the ballpark.

Earth Mother: +7 PPT and +7 FPT at base, so needs about 6 mines on resources to be in the ballpark. Can be tricky and might take a bit to scale up but doable. In the ballpark.

God of All Creation: Not really a founder, not expected to be a founder, so not really a good comparison.

God Commerce: With all connected cities and assuming 3 ITRs (so sailing + one of the trade wonders), we are talking +18 FPT +18 GPT. For the GM points, we can say this pantheon will have a town earlier than any other build, and will get them a bit more often. Lets be generous and say it will have an extra GM on top 2/3 of the time. So an extra +5ish GPT, 1 PPT, 1 FPT. I would argue CPT is at least twice as good as GPT, so our +12 CPT baseline gives us about +24 GPT, which is in the ballpark for this, plus it gets the extra faith. So yeah this one takes us over the top.

God of Craftsman: It takes a lot of quarries to put up the big numbers, this one just doesn't cut it.

God of the Expanse: To get the needed FPT numbers, I would need a border growth every 1.5 turns, and even then I'm not getting to that sweet +12 CPT. No way jose.

God of the Open Sky: With the proper setup, yeah I think you could meet or beat our baseline pretty solidly.

God of the Sea: I would need 9 fishing boats/Atolls to make baseline....doable but that might be a bit tough. So +9 PPT and +12 FoodPT if I get the sea sources I needed....is that the same ballpark as +12 CPT....probably. So in the ballpark.

God of Stars and Skies: Finding 15 tundra tiles with resource is a bit tricky, 10 sure....15 is dicey. So the faith is going to be lacking. But can probably get into the culture and food numbers. So....around the baseline.

God of the Sun: +18 FPT and +12 GPT. Maybe an extra +9/+12 FoodPT. So in the ballpark, good faith, probably a little yield lacking.

God of War: Already in discussion so not a good point of comparison.

God-King: Not a contender, obviously the best scaling late game but isn't really bringing home the bacon in that after founder phase.

Goddess of Beauty: So assuming the one work of art for the early artist, +3 FPT at base, needs another 12 FPT or 6 wonders. On higher difficulties this is hard for the early founder phase, later game it definately outscales. If we use the same rule for our commerce comparison for the +2 GPP on artist/engineer. 2/3 of a manufactory is +4 PPT, artist is +2 CPT, though you could argue bagging a wonder you might not have gotten otherwise. I'd say this one is below baseline, I can't think of a wonder that's going to match +10 CPT at that point in the game....maybe the oracle but you actually even outscale that culture in 40 turns.

Goddess of Festivals: You need to own/sell 14 luxs to get to baseline FPT....if you sold all of your monopoly luxs for another unique good (so 5ish more) that's like 6-9 lux maybe, not really cutting it. Not quite hitting your CPT numbers but you are getting a lot of gold. Later game definately outscales, but not really during the founder phase imo.

Goddess of Nature: You need 30 mountain spots to get your faith numbers, doable with the right start if you really ring your cities close together. That's +15 FoodPT and +15 GPT, in the ballpark of our baseline.

Goddess of Purity: Yield wise not really a good scaler, you would need incredible marsh/lake luck and I rarely find that kind of terrain to really scale with the baseline.

Goddess of Renewal: You need to work 30 forests to get the faith baseline, I doubt you would even have 30 pop total. But the CPT and SPT are very high and you get both of them, Id say its up there.

Goddess of Springtime: You would need serious plantation scaling to get to the baseline, I don't see it.

Goddess of the Home: You would need a building built slightly faster than 1 per turn to get your faith numbers, and then you're only getting food as a secondary. No way.

Goddess of the Hunt: Camps are pretty common, but +15 kind of common. Eeeeeehhhhh, not really seeing it.

Goddess of Wisdom: +18 FPT and +18 SPT assuming a specialist in every city. 2/3 rule on the GPP points is another +4 SPT. Yeah this one definately has solid scaling, though I find you have to go mass markets to really get the specialist up fast enough to milk the bonuses during the founding period, and markets are not high on my list of priorities, so there is a cost here....a pretty strong one.

Spirit of the Desert: While this has great speed of resources, its not the best scaling. 15 resource tiles in the desert can be tough on 6ish cities, and the secondary yields aren't the best.

Tutelary: Terrible faith generation, maybe +19 PPT and +12 GPT, so some great secondary yields. but faith is really low here in comparison.


So looking at the list, the ones that I think compete with or beat this version of Protection (and again we are looking at total yields, not how fast you get to them....which normally is very important but for the sake of argument).

In the same Ballpark

• Ancestor Worship
• Earth Mother
• Sea
• Stars/Skies
• Sun
• Nature

Beats Protection

• Commerce
• Open Sky
• Renewal
• Wisdom

So the pantheon is in pretty good company, in the upper 10 of 23 pantheons for scaling yields around the founding period, and I think only a few truly "outclass it" yield wise.

Now....which of these other pantheon offers a secondary benefit that compares with Protection's +10 healing? I can't think of a single whose secondary even comes close.

 

[Legen]

This means Protection will be able to found, but be subpar at spreading the religion, and not that good at economic development.

Lets assuming a nice 6 city setup, not too tall, a good number for that early founding part of the game. So this version of Protection generates +12 CPT and +15 FPT. We will consider this the "baseline". Lets see how other pantheons stack up.

At the point where you found the religion, I find that you're usually around the 4-city mark, varying depending on which policy tree you went for, and whether you attempted to build wonders beyond Stonehenge. I remember someone (in a deity photojournal iirc) saying that the rule of thumb for settling is about 1 city (Capital included) for each policy you have, else the increased culture and science costs weight you down too much. I don't think anyone realistically founds at the point when they complete their policy tree, so 6 cities is a really high mark for most civs nowadays.

Also, the number of cities tend to be higher if you pick a pantheon with food and/or production bonuses, as well if it doesn't require you to build a 110 building, if any. God of the Sea tends to be good for wide play due to these reasons, while any of Protection's versions are slow for fast expansion as a result; getting a fifth city is comparatively hard with this pantheon. Obviously, you can expand to 6 or more after that, but, at the point of founding, you're likely around the 4-city mark. This is also the usual point in which you tend to cover most, if not all, the tiles of your monopoly; pantheons that involve a given improvement generally reach their peak here.

Assuming you have 4 cities with Protection and managed to get the Walls by the time you founded, we're looking at a 118 total. For other pantheons:

Ancestor Worship: comparable faith output per city to Protection, with three cities having 4 citizens being feasible at this point. This pantheon is good for fast expansion due to the building required being both cheap and part of the early trio (Monument-Shrine-Council); an extra settler out of it is realistically, as that 110 Wall cost can be spent on an extra settler instead. This puts AW at between 114 to 135. Around the ballpark or lower.

Earth Mother: another pantheon that boosts part of the early trio, and one that provides some production; an extra settler is feasible for it. With a mining pantheon, you should feasibly have about 6 in your territory, and hopefully some iron revealed. This leaves a 4-city EM at a minimum of 1046 with no iron, and a 5-city EM at a 1156. Any extra iron pushes it further, as well as luck with a secondary mining luxury. Arguably in the ballpark, but with bonus production and prospect of a fifth city or wonder.

God of All Creation: indeed not a founder, not a good comparison.

God of Commerce: requires no buildings and can speed up an extra building or two due to the extra gold, a fifth city is feasible. For a 4-city Commerce and 1 ITR, we have 12 ; getting a fifth city raises that to 14 , while a second ITR (Petra or Sailing) gets to 16; with both, we have 18. Above the ballpark. Comes with 2 merchant points; not game winning normally, but should provide an extra town around the time of founding for another 62 (not counting boost from roads and trade routes), for a total of 18242. Really solid yields and economic development.

God of Craftsman: provides some production, but requires Stone Works, not particularly likely to get a fifth city. With a quarry pantheon, you should have around 6 quarry luxuries in your territory, not counting the eventual Stone. A 4-city Craftsman gets 141211, including the Palace's yields but no Stone. Any extra Stone (or lucky Marble) adds an extra 1, making it above the ballpark. Provides a very solid economy.

God of the Expanse: no building required and provides production, so a fifth city is feasible. Requires the empire to expand the borders about once every two turns to stay even with Protection's ballpark. Hard to tell how often you actually get it.

God of the Open Sky: terrain dependent, but with no building requirement. With some pastures, a fifth city is feasible. Hard to say what an average setup would be; a guess at 2 plains/grassland and 1 pasture per city, a 4-city GotOS gets 8124, around the ballpark with the gold. With a fifth city, we'd have 10155. A bit below to the ballpark in faith and culture, but plenty of gold. A better setup should put it above the ballpark, though.

God of the Sea: no building required and solid source of , a fifth city is very likely. A 4-city Sea covering 6 monopoly tiles would have 1086 without fish or atolls; a fifth city raises it to 11106. Fish is relatively common, while atolls depend on the mapscript. Having at least one of such per city increases the results to 15811 and 161011. Above the ballpark, with both a solid economy and expansion.

God of the Stars and Sky: tundra reliant, but no building required and provides food, having a fifth city is feasible. Any resource counts, and it doesn't even need improvement. Finding about 10 resources puts it at a 10,which is around the ballpark and providing plenty of food. Having better luck with resources can easily put it above the ballpark.

God of the Sun: requires granary, which at least is cheap and provides food for expansion, feasible to get a fifth city. A 4-city Sun gives 128, while a 5-city Sun gives 1510. Any Wheat farm adds an extra 3. Can bypass the ballpark, but replaces the culture output for gold.

God of War: discussed elsewhere.

God-King: unlikely to found, indeed not a contender.

Goddess of Beauty: hefty production investment on wonders, unlikely to get a fifth city. Would require 4 wonders to match the faith ballpark. On the other hand, provides artist and engineer points, which later turn into 363 around the time of the founding. Considering that, meeting the ballpark is possible.

Goddess of Festivals: no building requirement, a fifth city is feasible. Needs 10 unique luxuries to match the faith output, giving 111030, which is massive. A lot of that gold is likely used to import the luxuries at hefty prices, though. Possible to pull off, meets the ballpark and comes with plenty of gold and happiness.

Goddess of Nature: no building required and provides food, a fifth city is feasible. With a mountain start, each city would need 4 to 6 mountain tiles to bet around Protection's output, assuming no natural wonder. At 6 mountains per city, a 4-city Nature would give 12, while a 5-city one would give 15. Can be above the ballpark and provide some solid development.

Goddess of Purity: no building required and provides food, a fifth city is feasible. The terrain it requires is not likely to be found in enough quantities, though.

Goddess of Renewal: boosts Market, though it doesn't provide faith. If each city can get to 4 pop and set up a Market, then a 4-city Renewal would give up to 81688, which is a lot of valuable yields. Less faith than the ballpark, but the overall yield amount is extremely solid.

Goddess of Springtime: requires Herbalist, which now costs 65, and the pantheon provides food. A fifth city is feasible. With a plantation monopoly covering around 6 tiles, a 4-city Springtime would grant 14664, while a 5-city Springtime would grant 16665. Above the ballpark, and with some solid economic development.

Goddess of the Home: requires Shrine, grants food and growth, a fifth city is feasible. If each city manages to build something on average every 8 turns, a 4-city Home gives an average of 8 and a 5-city Home gives 10, plus the +25% Growth rate. Around the faith ballpark, but replacing culture for food.

Goddess of the Hunt: requires Lodge and provides food, a fifth city is feasible. Needs 11 camps to provide enough faith to compete with Protection. With 6 monopoly camps controlled and about 1 deer per city, a 4-city Hunt would provide 1010108, while a 5-city Hunt would give 11111110. Overall above the ballpark with solid economic development.

Goddess of Wisdom: requires a Market, unlikely to get a fifth city. A 4-city Wisdom gives 12, plus the scientist points, which can generate an Academy around the time of the founding for another 6; so, the total would be 1218. Above the ballpark.

Spirit of the Desert: no building required, grants production, works for any resource and may grant food with Oases, a fifth city is feasible. If you get an average of 2 resources per city and no Oases, a 4-city Desert gives 8, while a 5-city Desert gives 10. About the ballpark in faith and solid economic development. A few more resources or the presence of Oases can push it well above Protection's yields.

Tutelary Gods: requires Forges to make full use of it, which is a Classical Era building, not feasible by the time of founding a religion. Feasible to found a fifth city if ignoring the Forge. A 4-city Tutelary can give 1284, while a 5-city one can give 15105. Unlikely to found without significant help from other sources, but generates some really good economic yields.

Overall, most pantheons can outproduce the proposed Protection at the time you found a religion, often providing a third yield in large amounts, sometimes even a fourth yield. The amount provided can in fact be argued to compare favorably with the +10 heal from Protection, especially given how little the heal helps during peacetime. So, I think many of them can compare with Protection's +10 heal with ease.

 

[FinMc]

I really appreciate you all doing so much thinking around yield balancing, as someone who loves this mod, it's nice smart people are keeping things balanced.

RE: war bonuses, I think +5HP on Protection means I will never take it again, this was my pantheon of choice for like ~300 hours of authority pure warmongering but +5 HP means it'll never be worth taking.

The +10hp on kill might be bonkers, especially as Aztec (who is already a monster). We shall see.

 

[DeAnno]

I'm not so afraid the aztec killstack really. Ultimately the UU that gets the bonus is a spearman line, which means after it's one opening day of glory it'll suck until gunpowder. You can't even build more after researching steel. If you keep them alive through all that and then continue to nurse them as the game goes on, you really deserve the huge heal on kill bonus.

 

[Stalker0]

It’s down to just 2 votes! I encourage everyone to think very carefully about what you want and the arguments that have been presented, this will come down to the wire. Every vote counts!

 

[azum4roll]

I like the faith per defense, and dislike the heal bonus being +10HP. It's obvious what I voted for

 

[axatin]

I encourage everyone to think very carefully about what you want and the arguments that have been presented, this will come down to the wire. Every vote counts!

Actually, this is true also on a more general level with the new congress schedule. Previously, it was possible to vote yes for a change because one liked the general idea, and fine-tuning of values could be done during ratification. Now, every passed proposal will be in effect for at least three months, so a more careful and conservative voting approach is sensible.