(3-09) Proposal: God of War & Goddess of Protection Tweaks

[pineappledan]

Current God of War:
Faith from Kills (225% of unit CS)
+10% Unit Production
+10% Ranged City Strike

Current Goddess of Protection:
21 from Palace, Barracks, and Walls
+10 HP healing in friendly territory

Problem:
God of War's yields are feast or famine. Unreliable pantheon
The unit production and city ranged strike aren't very noticeable, especially early game.
Goddess of Protection is the only pantheon that has 2 regular building bonuses, and they are both 2nd-tier buildings. It's a very strong pantheon once it is set up, but it's very slow.
2per city and 3 in the capital is pretty high for a pantheon. Ancestor worship just got nerfed for similar yields.

Proposal:
Move the barracks building bonus from Goddess of Protection to God of War

New God of War:
Faith from Kills (175% of unit CS)
+22 from Barracks

New Goddess of Protection:
+21 to Palace and Walls, and 1for every 15City Strength
+5 HP healing in friendly territory

Would require new code for the scaling with city defense ability.

 

[Zakuzelo]

Would the code on 4UC's Mughal Fort work for the proposed Goddess of Protection change?

Agreed with the God of War issue. This is one of those pathenons that I've always been surprised doesn't have some token Palace buff, the unreliability is disgusting. It's like Honor in pantheon form. I'm not sure reducing the faith-on-kills percentage by that much is warranted, nor removing the unit production completely, but I like what you're thinking here.
Less so the Goddess of Protection one. Ancestor Worship's power wasn't just the 2 per city, it was that it was on a tier 1 building you're likely to build early in every city. You could change your whole build order around those super-Councils and not hurt your early / at all. That's not the case with Protection; as you said, it's strong, but very slow, and both it's buildings are more situational. Especially Walls, they're hard to justify building even with Protection boosts. That Wall aspect could be looked at, but I don't think a fix is really needed here.

 

[DeAnno]

I don't see how you made Protection less slow, you just made it worse. It gets one less Faith off the bat, and all cities will be between 10-19 str with walls so Walls will effectively give the same bonus, and now there's no barracks for it. And it was already kind of a bad pantheon imo.

 

[Anarcomu]

I can't and will never agree that Goddess of protection is a bad pantheon. That +10 hp is insane in early game, this allow for 10hp unit to get ready in 4turns instead of 6. This allow for longer defenses, but also better war, as you can get to the next city quicker. That yield "reduction" is not that much : early cities with a garrison will quickly hit 10 even without wall, and like Ancestor Worship which scale with time, Goddess of Protection will too.
Early capital will still get that 2 , thanks to Palace which increase , and it also encourage you to found cities on hill.

I said that 10 hp is insane in early game, I will add that it's strong thougt the entire game, especially with aviation that can bombard more often thanks to this.

EDIT : Most of the time, when going for conquest (Zulu is, if not the best, at least the funniest warmonger among all IMO), I prefer Goddess of protection over all else, precisely because of that 10hp heal.

 

[pineappledan]

Goddess of Protection is very strong, yes. This isn’t really about needing GoProtection. God of war doesn’t have a building, barracks would be the perfect building for him, and GoProt is the only pantheon with 2 buildings. If GoProtection gave barracks to GoWar then both pantheons would be able to found more reliably, and conform better to the overall pantheon designs.

I'm not sure reducing the faith-on-kills percentage by that much is warranted, nor removing the unit production completely, but I like what you're thinking here.

For context, Authority’s dominance is 100% on kills. Aztec’s UA is 150% and Celt’s Morrigan is 200%.

In order to avoid overlap with those UA bonuses I picked a lower number and shifted more of the power onto the barracks. Maybe the barracks should just be 1, and the yields on kill higher? That’s a fair argument to make and puts more emphasis on GoWar’s special ability. My first instinct was to try to stay clear of the Aztec’s and Celt's on-kill bonuses.

I don't see how you made Protection less slow, you just made it worse. It gets one less Faith off the bat, and all cities will be between 10-19 str with walls so Walls will effectively give the same bonus, and now there's no barracks for it. And it was already kind of a bad pantheon imo.

Right now, walls and barracks requires 5 techs and 220 for 4 2 in regular cities and 63 in the capital. This makes goddess of protection the slowest pantheon to deploy in all cities, but that's a lot of yields for a pantheon.

Goddess turn 1 palace boost is really fast. With the 1per 10 you can also plant a garrison in any city for an immediate boost on that. Much faster than teching to, or building a barracks/wall, you can plant a garrison in the city the same turn you settle the city. You only need 1 building with 3 techs and a garrison unit for the pantheon to be at full power in early game. That’s a safe 31 in regular cities and 52 In your capital with only 1 building. So it's not as many yields, but can be deployed earlier, but then it also would have scaling for later.

 

[Siddorm]

If these were separate proposals, I would vote for the New God of War and against the New Goddess of Protection.

 

[pineappledan]

This proposal is moving a building bonus from 1 belief to the other; moving a building from a pantheon with 2 building bonuses to one that has none. They are attached at the hip.

 

[Siddorm]

I don't see why we couldn't have two beliefs that get a bonus from the same building (barracks).

 

[pineappledan]

Design convention. This proposal is trying to bring GoProtection, which currently does not conform to design conventions, into line. The point of this is to find a compensatory bonus for GoP so we can move a building onto War so it's not so variable. Adding a new violation of the pantheon design conventions undermines the proposal.

 

[DeAnno]

New Goddess of Protection:
+1 to Palace and Walls, and 1for every 10City Strength
+10 HP healing in friendly territory

That’s a safe 31 in regular cities and 52 In your capital with only 1 building.

It seems like regular cities are only 2 faith? I don't understand where their third faith is coming from. Also isn't the capital only 3 faith?

Did you intend to leave Palace and Walls as +2 faith? I think that'd be a lot more reasonable than what you have posted currently.

 

[pineappledan]

Did you intend to leave Palace and Walls as +2 faith? I think that'd be a lot more reasonable than what you have posted currently.

Oh shoot. Yeah, that was the intent. Okay that's where the confusion is. Will amend in the OP

edit: fixed

 

[Stalker0]

What does it take to get a city to 10 cs right now? Walls would obviously do it, can you do it with a warrior garrison in a basic city? I imagine that would work.

 

[pineappledan]

What does it take to get a city to 10 cs right now? Walls would obviously do it, can you do it with a warrior garrison in a basic city? I imagine that would work.

I think you’re on the cusp with just a warrior. Depends if the city is your capital (CS from palace), or on a hill.

 

[Stalker0]

I think you’re on the cusp with just a warrior. Depends if the city is your capital (CS from palace), or on a hill.

To me the goal would be to allow a standard city with a warrior to get that key +1 faith. i think that's important, as it lets protection work with a garrison play. you expand with warrior garrisons both for "protection" but also for that faith. That is a good niche for protection I think, as while its not a high faith pantheon, you can get some of its faith online immediately when the city is settled, which really helps with the founding.

 

[pineappledan]

Flatland Capital, no Garrison: 8 , With warrior: 12
Flatland city, no Garrison: 5 , With warrior: 9, With Spearman: 11
Hill city, no Garrison: 7 , With warrior: 11

Hills Capital no Garrison: 10 , With warrior: 14, Warrior+Walls : 20

So that's an interesting spread. If it is 1 per 10, a flatland city has to get to spears before it has a garrison strong enough to get faith with no walls.
On the upper end, however, a capital on a hill can get 62 with just walls and the starting warrior; don't even have to upgrade to spears.

This seems like a good thing; means players actually have a small reward if they know about all the ways they can max city defense in the ancient era; there is the possibility to break into +2 in ancient under ideal conditions and with good game knowledge.

 

[Stalker0]

I forget does faith decimal? So would a flat city with a warrior get +.9 faith or 0?

If the later you could do 1 per 9. Based on the numbers you showed it would have no real larger scale impact but would help that initial city kickoff

 

[pineappledan]

Faith does not decimal, it would round down.

Based on the numbers you showed it would have no real larger scale impact but would help that initial city kickoff

That's because I didn't post literally all permutations.
Base: 5
Hill: +2
Palace: +3
Wall: +6 (Walls of Babylon is +8)
Warrior: +4
Spear: +6

So a regular City with hill, walls, and spearman would be (5+2+6+6) = 19, or (5+2+6+8) = 21 if playing Babylon.

If the threshold was brought down to 1 per 9 then non-capitals could reach +2 with bronze working and Construction.
So there is an impact. We have to determine what is a desirable level. I'm partial to 1 per 10. It's nice a rounded, and it keeps +2 from the scaling defense out of reach of regular cities until at least Classical (sword Garrisons can push it to 20). It also pushes the threshold juuuust high enough that the only civ that is an exception is Babylon, with the +2 extra CS on their UB. Gives that 1 civ a unique synergy.

Even in the worst case, a wall in a flat city with no garrison is still a combined 3 1 in that city. That's not an amazing pantheon by itself, but still quite reasonable.

 

[ma_kuh]

I think I on and off remember that hills provide more city CS. Is it a load screen tip? It should be.

I love a mechanic that teaches you about the intricacies of the game though. And it's very thematic that having a pantheon based on protection teaches you the best ways to maximize city CS using combinations of terrain and units.

 

[azum4roll]

This new Protection will give the most faith throughout the game, even more than Expansion.

 

[pineappledan]

I think it's on par with the new Ancestor Worship