(3-09) Proposal: God of War & Goddess of Protection Tweaks
- Thread starter pineappledan
- Start date
I looked at my last game (standard size), and counted how much faith each player would have gotten from this on the last turn of the game. The values ranged from 50 to 150.1for every 10
City Strength
Late game doesn't matter much for pantheons. They should mostly be balanced for early game.
Yes, but THAT much faith does matter. Maybe we should cap it at 3-5 per city.
Its a fair concern to consider. Traditionally protection has been held back by weak faith, so it was a hard founder, but its other benefits have always been good (culture pantheon + excellent secondary power with the healing).
Now it looks like a good founder. If its also a powerful faith generator....that could be too much.
pineappledan
Deity
Not much a fan of caps… maybe the correct number is 1 per 15?
pineappledan
Deity
1 per 10 is arguably too generous, even early. As I showed, a hill capital can already reach 20 with just the Construction tech.
As shown by the math I posted earlier, a wall in the absolute weakest city is 11. A warrior garrison in a walled city is guaranteed at least 15 . That's 31
in any walled/garrison town and 51 in the capital.
compared with the old 42 for barracks/wall, that's still much faster and less 
to deploy, and it scales. The Current GoProtection has very high yields for a pantheon already, ignoring its very good healing bonus. It is balanced against being slow to deploy, so losing some yields in ancient is more than fair.
with just the Construction tech.As shown by the math I posted earlier, a wall in the absolute weakest city is 11
. A warrior garrison in a walled city is guaranteed at least 15 . That's 31 in any walled/garrison town and 51 in the capital.compared with the old 4
2 for barracks/wall, that's still much faster and less to deploy, and it scales. The Current GoProtection has very high yields for a pantheon already, ignoring its very good healing bonus. It is balanced against being slow to deploy, so losing some yields in ancient is more than fair.
pineappledan
Deity
The Warrior monks follower belief, which will be released in the Feb version, has yields on garrison tied to a promotion.
So at 1 per 15 we are at the point where you effectively need "2 buildings" (ie a warrior and walls) to get 3 faith in a city....and 3 faith isn't a ton.
Comparing to AW, with AW if I go council first I am securing the faith AND I get some science for my trouble at the cost of 1 culture (as compared to going monument first). That seems a fair trade, but only because of the science. With protection I could go walls first to secure 3 faith with a warrior (produced from another city similar to how God of the Sea operates), but the culture hit is bigger since I'm not getting any other meaty yields for my trouble.
We've also lost the ability to go walls + hills to get that first extra faith, which is disappointing but potentially necessary.
Eh....ultimately it would probably work, yeah your losing out on some culture but that +10 healing is really big, and I think this is probably still a reasonable founder if you play to its strengths....more reasonable than it was before. It has an interesting synergy with Fealty still, as the extra city defense might pick you up another faith in some of your cities. (I'm curious how the numbers would pan out there).
Comparing to AW, with AW if I go council first I am securing the faith AND I get some science for my trouble at the cost of 1 culture (as compared to going monument first). That seems a fair trade, but only because of the science. With protection I could go walls first to secure 3 faith with a warrior (produced from another city similar to how God of the Sea operates), but the culture hit is bigger since I'm not getting any other meaty yields for my trouble.
We've also lost the ability to go walls + hills to get that first extra faith, which is disappointing but potentially necessary.
Eh....ultimately it would probably work, yeah your losing out on some culture but that +10 healing is really big, and I think this is probably still a reasonable founder if you play to its strengths....more reasonable than it was before. It has an interesting synergy with Fealty still, as the extra city defense might pick you up another faith in some of your cities. (I'm curious how the numbers would pan out there).
pineappledan
Deity
Also it’s mediated by the palace, AW doesn’t have anything like that.
3 faith per city is fine; that’s all the celts get after all. The old GotSun was 3 faith per city and some gold, and it was considered merely bad, but pretty safe. This is 3 per city, scaling up, and healing, and 5 in 1 city
3 faith per city is fine; that’s all the celts get after all. The old GotSun was 3 faith per city and some gold, and it was considered merely bad, but pretty safe. This is 3 per city, scaling up, and healing, and 5 in 1 city
Ok so lets dig in and compare to some other pantheons and see where it stands in terms of later scaling.
So I think the basic "founder" assumption is Walls + Warrior (CS 15) for 3 faith per city. That scales to like a god of the see or AW in the early game.
So medieval we have Walls + Castle + longsword or knight (CS 30) to give 4 faith per city. So that's an AW with 8 people per city... how reasonable is that in medieval, probably in the ballpark. That's goddess of nature with 8 mountain tiles.....map dependent I think that's tough for every city, certainly for a few. Home can give that production with a building built every 4 turns....that's probably a bit steep, I think that is doable periodically but not all the time.
So....I think by medieval protection is probably a top faith producing pantheon, not necessarily the best (as it has to catch up with those very early faith pushing pantheons) but certainly in the running, and very consistent.
Now we get to the bastion fort. So that's CS 41 in a normal city with tercio (you could crack the 45 in your capital on a hill). You can get an extra faith if you garrison with lancers, is it worth a heavier lancer play for another faith per city? Eh....I probably wouldn't go ham on that idea, but if I had the horses I wouldn't say no either. So 4-5 faith per city, leaning towards 4 still. AW at 12 pop is probably starting to overtake this in faith (it might still be close due to Protection's palace + higher CS in the capital, but I think its comparable). I think most other pantheons have capped on their scaling at this point.
And then arsenal with a rileman puts us squarely on the 66 CS, so a comfortable 6 faith per city. AW needs 16 pop per city to match that....I think AW is likely putting up equivalent numbers or in the ballpark, might be a bit higher overall. I don't think any other pantheon is putting up those numbers.
So Protection and AW seem like a reasonable comparison. Which is better in this model, AW gives a little extra science at the beginning. I'd argue protection has better scaling for a time, I think AW catches up periodically but a person milking their protection play is likely going to out faith them for a while though AW's late game scaling is better. I think at 1 per 15 CS you don't have to worry that its late game is going to outscale AW in faith....though I think you can make the argument its one of the best faith generating pantheons in the game. Protection's +10 HP healing.....phew its good, and AW doesn't have anything equivalent in its back pocket.
So the argument could be made this is overall better than AW. I think you would probably need to nerf the healing to +5 to make this a question rather than an obvious "its a bit too good"
So I think the basic "founder" assumption is Walls + Warrior (CS 15) for 3 faith per city. That scales to like a god of the see or AW in the early game.
So medieval we have Walls + Castle + longsword or knight (CS 30) to give 4 faith per city. So that's an AW with 8 people per city... how reasonable is that in medieval, probably in the ballpark. That's goddess of nature with 8 mountain tiles.....map dependent I think that's tough for every city, certainly for a few. Home can give that production with a building built every 4 turns....that's probably a bit steep, I think that is doable periodically but not all the time.
So....I think by medieval protection is probably a top faith producing pantheon, not necessarily the best (as it has to catch up with those very early faith pushing pantheons) but certainly in the running, and very consistent.
Now we get to the bastion fort. So that's CS 41 in a normal city with tercio (you could crack the 45 in your capital on a hill). You can get an extra faith if you garrison with lancers, is it worth a heavier lancer play for another faith per city? Eh....I probably wouldn't go ham on that idea, but if I had the horses I wouldn't say no either. So 4-5 faith per city, leaning towards 4 still. AW at 12 pop is probably starting to overtake this in faith (it might still be close due to Protection's palace + higher CS in the capital, but I think its comparable). I think most other pantheons have capped on their scaling at this point.
And then arsenal with a rileman puts us squarely on the 66 CS, so a comfortable 6 faith per city. AW needs 16 pop per city to match that....I think AW is likely putting up equivalent numbers or in the ballpark, might be a bit higher overall. I don't think any other pantheon is putting up those numbers.
So Protection and AW seem like a reasonable comparison. Which is better in this model, AW gives a little extra science at the beginning. I'd argue protection has better scaling for a time, I think AW catches up periodically but a person milking their protection play is likely going to out faith them for a while though AW's late game scaling is better. I think at 1 per 15 CS you don't have to worry that its late game is going to outscale AW in faith....though I think you can make the argument its one of the best faith generating pantheons in the game. Protection's +10 HP healing.....phew its good, and AW doesn't have anything equivalent in its back pocket.
So the argument could be made this is overall better than AW. I think you would probably need to nerf the healing to +5 to make this a question rather than an obvious "its a bit too good"
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The celts also have a UU that generates faith, so they are a terrible terrible comparison point for any discussion here.
pineappledan
Deity
The faith is also immediate, applied directly to the city turn 1. My point was that’s a UA, and if you’re only looking at the 3 faith benchmark in a vacuum, it’s good enough to carry an entire faith civ. A very fast, unconditional 3 faith on a pantheon is a UA ability, and the fact it’s not 4 faith tells you something.
I sort of agree on the healing; it was probably always too much. Will amend OP
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Legen
Emperor
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I've edited my files to test how the proposed God of War would fare, and my first test points out that it is a very slow pantheon. At 100% CS faith, the contribution is small, and the Barracks cost means it takes quite a while for that 2 faith to start working. The extra 1 wasn't noticeable either.
The game was a quick run with Assyria and Authority, to test for bugs in the implementation of another proposal, and the barbarian chase aspect of the pantheon. Stonehenge, a faith CS ally (5 faith per turn) and a successful early war (plenty of kills + conquest) made it an exceptional case, and I had help from the 34UC UB, which adds more Ancient Era faith. Yet, the founding time was at turn 104 on standard speed, suggesting that the expected founding time for an average run would be around the 120-140 turn mark. Way behind the time I can get with most pantheons on generic civs (a.k.a. no faith from uniques).
The proposed God of War is looking to be subpar to other pantheons. I'll test a few more games with other civs to get more data on this proposal.
CS faith, the contribution is small, and the Barracks cost means it takes quite a while for that 2 faith to start working. The extra 1 wasn't noticeable either.The game was a quick run with Assyria and Authority, to test for bugs in the implementation of another proposal, and the barbarian chase aspect of the pantheon. Stonehenge, a faith CS ally (5
faith per turn) and a successful early war (plenty of kills + conquest) made it an exceptional case, and I had help from the 34UC UB, which adds more Ancient Era faith. Yet, the founding time was at turn 104 on standard speed, suggesting that the expected founding time for an average run would be around the 120-140 turn mark. Way behind the time I can get with most pantheons on generic civs (a.k.a. no faith from uniques).The proposed God of War is looking to be subpar to other pantheons. I'll test a few more games with other civs to get more data on this proposal.
Legen
Emperor
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2015
- Messages
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Second game with the proposed God of War. Japan, a civ that adds 1 to Barracks (and Walls), it is the civ most affected by this proposal. Founded on turn 102, with Stonehenge, Statue of Zeus (free Barracks + 1 from the wonder itself). Opened Tradition (3 early from Sovereignty) due to a flood plains start. Barbarians didn't roam my lands, I instead went to clear three barb camps that were requested by two CS quests.
Overall a slow start compared to what this civ usually gets with the current Goddess of Protection + Tradition. I usually get a pantheon between turns 85-95 in these conditions. Compared to it, founding on turn 102 makes it similar to how I tend to perform when playing with civs that have no faith bonuses, like Babylon and Carthage. And curiously, AI Austria managed to found on turn 101 with Goddess of the Home. All of this suggest that the proposed God of War could be amended to provide 31 to Barracks and be on par with existing pantheons, faith-wise.
The 1 on Barracks has been underwhelming, even for Tradition's secondary cities. I was expecting it to help them to get infrastructure almost as if I were playing Progress, but the city tends to have already expanded to enough production tiles by the time the barracks is ready.
Despite Japan adding a 1 to the barracks, I'm one policy behind all other AIs, though not for long. There's a big opportunity cost in prioritizing Barracks over the monument and shrine; Japan is usually able to cover it, but a generic civ will likely struggle. I intent to try with a generic civ next to confirm it.
to Barracks (and Walls), it is the civ most affected by this proposal. Founded on turn 102, with Stonehenge, Statue of Zeus (free Barracks + 1 from the wonder itself). Opened Tradition (3 early from Sovereignty) due to a flood plains start. Barbarians didn't roam my lands, I instead went to clear three barb camps that were requested by two CS quests.Overall a slow start compared to what this civ usually gets with the current Goddess of Protection + Tradition. I usually get a pantheon between turns 85-95 in these conditions. Compared to it, founding on turn 102 makes it similar to how I tend to perform when playing with civs that have no faith bonuses, like Babylon and Carthage. And curiously, AI Austria managed to found on turn 101 with Goddess of the Home. All of this suggest that the proposed God of War could be amended to provide 3
1 to Barracks and be on par with existing pantheons, faith-wise.The 1
on Barracks has been underwhelming, even for Tradition's secondary cities. I was expecting it to help them to get infrastructure almost as if I were playing Progress, but the city tends to have already expanded to enough production tiles by the time the barracks is ready.Despite Japan adding a 1
to the barracks, I'm one policy behind all other AIs, though not for long. There's a big opportunity cost in prioritizing Barracks over the monument and shrine; Japan is usually able to cover it, but a generic civ will likely struggle. I intent to try with a generic civ next to confirm it.
