(3-09a) Counterproposal: God of War & Goddess of Protection Tweaks

[rusbeh]

Counterproposal to: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ss-of-protection-tweaks.681406/#post-16395309

Current God of War:
from Kills (225% of unit CS)
+10% Unit Production
+10% Ranged City Strike

Current Goddess of Protection:
21 from Palace, Barracks, and Walls
+10 HP healing in friendly territory

Proposal:
New God of War:
from Kills (100% of unit CS)
2 from Barracks
+15% Unit Production

New Goddess of Protection:
21 from Palace and Walls
1 from garrison
+5 HP healing in friendly territory
+15% Ranged City Strike

Rationale:
God of War is bad and needs more purpose to it. The 10% unit production had the right idea but was not enough to make it a worthwhile pantheon. The barracks faith bonus helps with some passive faith. The 10% ranged city strike was also too low of a bonus and feels better suited for Goddess of Protection. The garrison providing faith also feels great for Goddess of Protection as you want your military to protect and not be roaming around like in authority. I think 1 faith is enough as the pantheon has a lot of faith sources already. That way it also wouldn't hurt so bad if you needed to move your units away from the garrisons. The +10 HP healing in friendly territory is incredibly strong. Bit of a nerf to it without eliminating it as it also suits the pantheon.

Moderator Action: Added counterproposal link. - Recursive

 

[pineappledan]

The warrior monks follower belief from last congress gives 2 for garrisons.

In case you are trying to preserve unique abilities by moving the strike modifier around you need not bother. Bran the Giant +25%RCS to cities, so it already is being used elsewhere. Moving it off the base pantheons just makes Celts more special.

 

[rusbeh]

The warrior monks follower belief from last congress gives 2 for garrisons.

In case you are trying to preserve unique abilities by moving the strike modifier around you need not bother. Bran the Giant +25%RCS to cities, so it already is being used elsewhere. Moving it off the base pantheons just makes Celts more special.

Your God of War manages to be potentially even worse than the old God of War. I dont know why I would ever take it. The unit production felt great on a warring focused pantheon. With this proposal I see a reason to pick God of War if I'm going for domination.

I feel like what I'm proposing fits the pantheons and are fair at least on paper. I dont feel like it's a problem if I can stack minor bonuses on some occasions.

 

[pineappledan]

I think what you have proposed is fair as well. I don't think it's better though. (I mean, obviously, or else I would have proposed it myself)

The GoWar change is minor, IMO.

• 15% unit production is stronger than 1 on barracks, but less flexible and less biased towards the early game. GoWar's yields on kills already scales on unit combat strength, so I don't think 2 different sources of lategame scaling is prudent or desireable.

GoProtection is where the meat is

• heal could be nerfed to 5, sure. 10 is probably too high.
• the % city RCS is meh, no matter where you put it, unless it really packs a punch like with the Bran pantheon.
• That's 4 different bonuses on 1 belief, and I'm not aware of any other belief with so many tiny bonuses. It looks scattershot.
• I prefer the idea of the per scaler.
  • The addition of a scaling mechanic requires DLL the same as tying a garrison mechanic directly onto a pantheon. Neither are particularly hard.
  • My proposed per scaler doesn't strictly require a garrison to generate yields, it just needs a garrison before castles to reach certain thresholds. It gives a scaling method to GoProtection which indirectly scales with city defenses, and not with garrisons, which seems thematically stronger.
  • The emphasis on city strength makes players focus on a new game mechanic which players might otherwise take for granted. It strikes a balance between highlighting a novel aspect of the game without being complex. I think it's quite elegant in that respect.
  • A flat bonus of 1 yield for a garrison is tiny outside the very early game. People are talking about removing a policy which gives 12 for garrisons; I don't see how people would approve of this yet disdain the other and still claim to be voting with a consistent, coherent vision of the game.

 

[rusbeh]

People are talking about removing a policy which gives 12 for garrisons; I don't see how people would approve of this yet disdain the other and still claim to be voting with a consistent, coherent vision of the game.

People are talking about it because it doesn't fit authority, but a garrison bonus would fit Goddess of Protection so that point is irrevelant. Also you're saying scattershot, while I'm seeing it as a little bit of everything towards one objective, which is obviously protection of your cities.

The old God of War had 2 scalers to it. I'm already proposing a decrease of 1 scaler (faith on kills) and adding one early game bonus (faith on barracks). It's okay if unit production bonus is less flexible than 1 hammer per city, because it's God of War. That's what it's supposed to do.

Overall my proposal would be a small buff to a bad pantheon while your proposal would potentially nerf it, which you failed to address in your post. Also your Goddess of Protection would be pretty meh early game and really strong late game on faith production, which is weird for a pantheon.

 

[pineappledan]

Overall my proposal would be a small buff to a bad pantheon while your proposal would potentially nerf it, which you failed to address in your post

The difference between your GoWar and mine is 1 per city vs 15% to units. +15% is much, much stronger. Your proposal goes too far, it’s too strong. Rethink your math. That is all.

Also your Goddess of Protection would be pretty meh early game and really strong late game on faith production, which is weird for a pantheon.

That’s the cost of a scaling pantheon, that it be fairly meh early. You want it to just be strong all the time?

 

[rusbeh]

The difference between your GoWar and mine is 1 per city vs 15% to units. +15% is much, much stronger. Your proposal goes too far, it’s too strong. Rethink your math. That is all.

That’s the cost of a scaling pantheon, that it be fairly meh early. You want it to just be strong all the time?

So God of War in its current form is a pretty bad pantheon. I think we all agree on that. In your original proposal you're saying 10% production bonus isn't very noticable, which I agree. Also in your previous post you're saying what I propose is fair. But now all of a sudden a 5% increase is too strong and I need to rethink my math. 15% would make it a worthwile pantheon, while your proposal would make it a really bad one.

 

[pineappledan]

My proposal moves >50% of the faith generation power of the GoWar pantheon onto the barracks. Your proposal also does that, and then also makes the other bonus 50% stronger.

Your proposal is an overcorrection. The point was to make GoWar more consistent, not to make it S tier.

 

[rusbeh]

I guess I would agree to disagree that it's an overcorrection. Have you played with God of War? It's pretty crap in my experience.

 

[Legen]

I want to sponsor this, but I had weird behaviors when I tested garrisons tied to beliefs. Some units would give less yields than they should (e.g. pathfinder), and some would give more (crossbowman).

@pineappledan , have you noticed any weird behavior for Warrior Monk's faith on garrisons? I haven't figured out why some units were getting variable yields when experimenting with 'UnitPromotions_GarrisonYield'.

 

[pineappledan]

I hadn't noticed, tbh. I just tried to get it functioning. regardless, it's only on 1 unit combat class in my new belief, so that wouldn't matter.

 

[axatin]

@Legen The yields in UnitPromotions_GarrisonYield scale with unit strength: Total yields are (Yield Value in UnitPromotions_GarrisonYield) * BaseCombatStrength / 8.

 

[axatin]

I sponsor this.

 

[Recursive]

Proposal sponsored by axatin.