3.16 possibilities

mystikx21

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I sent a chunk of this off to Expired, but I wanted to open things up a bit. I think we can break this up into independent threads as there are objects that appear worth commenting to others.

Leaders
(most of these come from Eric's mod)
US - should give a large fixed amount for NASA (scaled for game speed/map size?)
Brazil - should have some earlier brazilwood camp features
Carthage - no free sailing, free harbor
England - two movement and a free or unique promo for ships seems fine over XP, nerf longbow?
indonesia - civilian embark
japan - samurai fix (28-29:c5strength:)
morocco - better kasbah
netherlands - unique harbor instead
sweden - fix free unit?

policies notes
Generally there's too much overlap between some of the trees and the late-game ideologies
When balancing this overlap should be considered, and possibly removed from the earlier game
Ideology tenets would be balanced on a somewhat different level than policy trees because of the tiering but they should both follow a "no duds" sensibility, with acceptance of cherry picking but not a quick and easy path to do so.

Liberty
opener +1 production and +1 culture - good
collective rule +25% settler in all - good
Meritocracy 200xera gold, -33% policy cost moved original effect to representation - good
republic - free defence building +1 production per defence building - consider putting a 10% building production here instead of +1 from defence buildings.
representation 1 happy connect, -5% unhappy per pop - good.
citizenship - no change (keep it at 1 worker free)
finisher - no change - good

part of the reason liberty is so powerful is that the bonus production is useful for any purpose (wonders, units) where it should be more about building up your economy. this should be more limited and focused on economic production rather than general production. Right now you can get +5 production per city very early on (+1 city/wall, and +3 from the engineer slot on the wall). Which is crazy strong. I'd remove both the production from the wall and the engineer slot.

Replaced bonus defence production with 10% to buildings.
Consider moving the free happy from piety to this tree (somewhere, it will need a location other than representation, citizenship, or collective rule. opener, meritocracy, or republic)
Consider replacing the free wall with a defence building production bonus (with no bonus production on the walls, but a production bonus to make all 4 defence buildings)?

tradition
opener - no change - good
aristocracy - no change - happy from 10th person in city is gimmicky though
landed elite 25% surplus food +2 food/city +1 food/4 pop in capital (tone down surplus to 15%)
monarchy - no change?
oligarchy - no change - needs some help - free archer?
mentors +5 science, 5% science on science buildings (?) I guess?
finisher +50% GPP 2x border expansion - GPP rate steps on ideologies, but is fine otherwise. Consider reducing it to 25% and raising the ideology ones to 50/75%

Consider merging and adjusting the garrison policies from tradition and honor.
Reduced surplus food to 15%
Reduced GPP finisher to 25%


honor
opener - (culture from barb kills increased, barb bonus decreased) - basically fine but weak
spoils of war 3x gold from kills and bonus to CS capture - combine with a pillage bonus or a food/production loot from kill/conquest effect spread like maritime CS yield
gladiators +1 arena happy 2 defence units at capital, 2 free units -arena bonus is lame. remove it and replace with a melee/vanguard unit combat bonus or move happy from barracks here and remove it from arenas
military caste - no change (+1 culture) - meh - i would knock the culture back down to +2 and combine with other effects, maybe the immediate move purchase effect or a bonus to barracks
discipline - GG +1 move, 15% adjacent - okay (citadel bonus?)
professional army -50% upgrade 15% unit production
finisher -1 happy barracks, units move immediately purchased (meh)

Needs a new finisher, replace happy on arena and/or barracks with temp "courthouse" building or national happy from kills/conquests (temporary?)
Consider putting +1 production per barracks line. (at present this is 1-2-3)
Barracks line production bonus (50% faster)
Consider a bonus to citadel. 2/2
Consider a reduction to puppet penalties
Consider a melee/vanguard combat bonus (10-15%, as in default)
Consider a free smith?
Should be no passive culture and no passive happiness in the tree but offer powerful activated choices instead.
As a random suggestion, instead of the move on purchase, is there a way to have honor 2x the construction of a civ's unique units (or early game unique buildings)?

piety
charity - 25% gold +2 temple, +3 holy site, culture on holy site would help here
inspiration - great prophet, prior to finishing tree, so earlier than liberty
tolerance +1 happy religious, multiple religions effects (meh). (remove +1 happy on shrine)
unity GA, 50% less golden age - move this out of the tree.
mediation +1 faith shrine temple -33% faith cost (was 20%, combined two) Maybe fine at -25%
opener +4 happy +2 faith 2x shrine - should be +2 faith and 2x shrine/temple construction and at most +2 happy
finisher - reformation effect - fine in theory, beliefs need resorted though as they currently break beliefs.

consider a bonus to faith %? or a bonus to spread or resist spread mechanics
Consider a means to convert faith to tourism (.25?), either as a belief or via prophets/holy sites/mosques/pagoda/cathedral effect? More interesting than the golden age or more sources of culture at least
Move free happy to liberty
Replace multiple religion effect
Remove shrine happy bonus

commerce
opener - 10% production/gold (should go to 10-15% gold)
mercantile +2 non combat move, 25% city connections -25% cost road/rr (consider splitting off the road cost reduction elsewhere)
protectionism +1 gold village +1 production mine/mill (should go to 10% production, +1 mine/mill?)(should be village bonus plus cost reduction for roads)
Guilds/entrepreneurs GM bonus GM rate, 2x GM gold (add CH bonus)
caravans +3 gold per route 1.5 sea route, - increase to 4 and 2 (add a trade route or road cost reduction as in default)
maritime infrastructure +4 production coastal +4 gold coastal buildings (move to exploration, replace as purchase cost reduction)
finisher go back to happy from luxuries instead of market/smith? current finisher steps on both freedom and order ideologies.

Consider a bonus to CH.
Move +1 luxury happy here - replaced market/smith happy
Move cost reduction for roads back here
Move out production bonuses
Move purchase cost reduction back here
Consider a bonus to workboat or plantation/camp gold?
Consider adding a trade route (or in exploration?)
Get rid of any free mercs effect entirely.
(I forgot that the mercantilism bonus here wasn't in the mod by default, I've had the mercs gone in my own version for a while)

patronage
opener +2 CS Trade route - remove reveal all CS, pair with something else
philanthropy - instant 20 influence 33% gold influence
special relationship -25% slower 10% faster other decrease (other decrease is annoying and I'd consider removing the effect)
consulates -20 resting point
scholasticism - 2/3 science friend/ally CS
cultural diplomacy - 10% GPP, gift GP
trade pact 2/3 production friend/ally CS
finisher - 2x resources from CS, bonus happy from CS luxuries (moved from CD)

Scholasticism and trade pact seem like duds, the opener too.
Reveal is lame and needs replaced.

aesthetics
opener 50% faster culture buildings (+1 culture on them?)
fine arts +1 culture from happy (ahriman's idea of .5 for culture and .25 for tourism is better here)
cultural center +2 NW culture, 33% WW cities
artistic genius GA 25% rate, free artist
flourishing +1 culture village 100% archaeology
ethics 2x theme 25% tourism effects
finisher - hidden antiquity? seems weak as a finisher give free archaeologist?

Replace culture from happy with combination of culture/tourism from happy
Consider moving the golden age effect from piety to this tree (better synergy with culture wins)
Consider +1 tourism on Great Works
Archaeology effects make more sense to keep here for synergy with GW effects.

exploration
opener +2 embarked/admiral +1 ship move - fine like that.
finisher +2 happy from luxury (move back to commerce)
naval tradition +1 happy sea buildings
mercantalism -25% purchase cost, -25% upkeep for buildings (fine, tone down slightly percentages) Moved both back out replaced as gold from sea buildings, buffed from vanilla
colonization 3 pop city, 2 settler, 2 worker, 2 defence appear - fine.
pioneer spirit civilian move +1, -50% road cost, 100% harbor build - replace road cost effect, bonus coastal production
homestead act - tier one buildings free (cut back on the buildings to 4 of the 6 monument, granary, library, smith, colosseum, caravan, and no barracks, stable, walls, lighthouse for free. Move some of these free buildings to ideology effects in order or autocracy)

There's way too much free stuff and way too much stuff from other later ideology trees here. Dial back happiness (free arena and all coastal buildings AND all luxuries?), and the number of free buildings. This tree is basically broken right now with a ton of freebies.
Remove most/all of the free buildings to Order, if at all. A bonus for construction for some tier 1 buildings might be fine, ala the harbor (I'd say smith, granary, lighthouse, caravan, stable, monument would be candidates for this, but not all of them) - at present Homestead provides a 100% production boost to granary, lighthouse, caravan, stable, and smith, but none are free. They're just cheaper. Harbor bonus remains in pioneer spirit
Move the purchase cost, road cost, and luxury happy to commerce
Move the upkeep for buildings to Order
Consider extra trade route here (not commerce)?
Bonus to sea trade? (for now in commerce still)
Bonus to sea combat or naval unit production?
Bonus to workboat yield and/or isles?
Bonus to natural wonders? (encourages exploring)
Needs finisher replaced. (trade route would be nice there)
Bonus to camp?

knowledge
opener - free GS, I like the +4 science on National wonders from Eric too.
finisher - free tech is fine
revolution - +50% RA (no change) - I like the 2x GIs idea instead, but that steps on freedom ideology, a bonus to academy and/or GS rate seems fine here.
counterintel +25% spy +2 happy from constable/police/NIA and 2x speed - remove and rename, replace
humanism 10% while happy is fine.
free thought +1 science village +2 lighthouse - go back to university effect, or possibly bonus to food or science effects here on farm/village only, no bonus on lighthouse. I don't get that one.
secularism +4 specialist - good at +2, +4 is crazy

bonus to bulbing GS?
Bonus to Academy/GS rate
Needs science and happy from national wonders (change ideology NW tenets to be more interesting and actually good)
Consider a bonus to GE rate?

Ideologies
Freedom
Good
Capitalism - 3 happy for most cities.
urbanisation - 3 happy for many cities. Consider changing the water mill to aqueduct as a straight growth happiness effect.
space procurement
treaty organisation - interesting concept (influence for trade routes with CS)
civil society (1/2 food for specs) and 50% longer golden age
new deal - make it 2x yield to main yield for GIs? - buffed slightly, should also improve natural wonders and extra to landmarks
Avant Garde (bump the GP rate to 75-100%)

okay
Arsenal of Democracy (bump the CS influence or move out of Level 2?)
media culture (34% tourism with broadcast, bump it to 50?)
finest hour (33% city strength, could use some "draftees"?)
volunteer army (FL unit needs some adjustment?)
universal health care - boring as it's copied across all 3. Fine here as Freedom is taller but still boring. Could be changed to be more specific increases on cultural/production/science NWs. GEM version of Freedom tree had ~2x NW yields, which might be more appealing here to use

bad
covert action (2x CS rigging)
creative expression - (increase culture to +1 from more sources?)
economic union - +3 to trade routes late game is barely noticed

Consider a +1 to one or two of farms/pastures/plantations/camps/workboats in this tree.
Consider a bonus to landmarks (as part of GI buff)
Consider a bonus to natural wonders (as part of GI buff)
Consider adding specialist slot for cities? (per size x?)

Order
Good -
Academy of Sciences +3 happy for most cities
Iron Curtain - free courthouse, better internal routes (bump/replace that?)
Space Pioneers
young pioneers - +3 happy city.
hero of people (bump rate to 50-75%, leave the specialist 1/2 food bonus in freedom though)
5 year plan +2p/city and +1 mine/quarry (liberty and commerce steps on this, add a bonus to wells/mills/boats for starters and remove commerce bonuses)
party leadership - 1 most yield/city (meh?), add a 10-15% production bonus?
skyscrapers - 33% purchase cost buildings (makes little sense thematically here)
resettlement - 3 pop city (exploration destroys this, it needs replaced. Probably with some buildings moved here from exploration) - replace as building upkeep reduction

Okay
Cultural Revolution - tourism with order
Proletariat - tourism with less happy (good concept)
double agent - 2x spy counter on tech steal
Socialist Realism - +2 happy most cities, monument bump is meaningless though, needs something else with it (make it free monument in all cities and +1 happy)
worker faculties - 25% science on factory 2x factory speed. maybe put science from strategic resources (late), and/or decrease power plant costs?

bad
patriotic war 15% friendly strength
Universal HC - change it to do something else for NWs in Order (make them available easier/cheaper?, improve production NW yields?)

Several copied ideas went to exploration, so Order becomes often pointless. Either move them whole or in part to Order from exploration (ideally), or have some other effects replacing this.
I'd consider moving -upkeep on buildings pick here somewhere and several of the free buildings in exploration, for starters.
Bonuses from espionage buildings would be fine in here somewhere instead of in Knowledge, where it makes less sense.
Bonuses to non-GI tile yields
Bonus to production?
Move upkeep cost from buildings here

Autocracy
good
lightning warfare
militarism +6 happy/city (from XP buildings)
mobilization - 33% purchase cost units
nationalism -33% unit upkeep
police state +3 happy courthouse 2x courthouse speed
total war 25% unit production 15XP

okay
cult of personality (potentially lots of tourism, but likely with civs you already have some) tourism from conquests may be more interesting.
clausewitz
fortified borders +3 happy/city but from defence buildings, poor synergy
futurism - tourism per GW/GA/GM
gunboat (interesting concept)
third alternative 2x resources, small capital yields though

bad
elite forces (wounded unit bonus, weakened by combat changes in GK). Bonus healing promotion would help.
industrial espionage 2x tech steal - usually not needed
united front 2x gift from military CS - usually not needed
universal health care (change to make militaristic/industrial National Wonders better instead of just more happiness, leave the happiness effects here?)

Consider making a bonus yield on luxuries and resources (not happiness, gold or production).
Consider having a bonus yield on citadels
Consider a culture or tourism bonus from kills/captures (if not used in honor).

unit changes
Gatling gun line adjust.
Use expired-mod-mod upgrade path (arque-musket) instead of default mod path (arque-gatling gun)
Keshik and Camel Archer are not set (20/21 for keshik, 21/26 for camel?)
. Siege Tower may also be off.
Unique Dragoons would also need adjustment if Dragoons take over the skirmisher 1-range lancer role. Hussar especially because of its flank attack, which shouldn't work with ranged attacks. All would need a ranged attack or buff to melee attack (Commanche, Berber, Hussar, Cossack). I considering taking the ranged attack strength and make it the regular attack strength for the Hussar to preserve the flank strike. Cossack would also need to decide its value as ranged or melee. These are things that happen when unit lines are changed in function though.
I may have some more minor unit adjustments here as I look this over. Mostly relates to unit costs though, because of the bump upward a few versions ago. This may have more to do with errors on the spreadsheet I have, but it appears to impact frigates/subs/galleons/xcom and a few others. I will post a list of unit lines to see if there's some agreement.
I'd consider putting an intercept % on the carrier with a range of 2-3
I was okay with the unit upkeep formula from before. If it can be implemented.

Building/economy changes
Amphitheater back to +1 culture on resources. There is too much culture in the mod without equal adjustment to tourism, and culture is a more powerful yield in BNW that additional sources should be made carefully.
Factory +1 to modern resources. Barracks boost on iron/copper.
Remove engineer slot from wall. Move to something else, workshop would be fine.
+2 yield on scientists and engineers (-1)

75% requirement for National Wonders, or a way to reduce NW construction costs via policies.
Forest chop should be no higher than 40 production on standard.
Bump upkeep on all happiness buildings, as well as science and maybe growth buildings.
Remove palaces, replace with national yields?
Camp/pasture/plantation/quarry should have freshwater bonus and non-freshwater bonus. Well have a bonus or be buffed slightly, on land it's often weak
Reduce academy, manufactory, landmark, holy site start value to +6 from +8. CH +9. bump each in policy trees +3, and/or 2x, or to a max of +15 for all but CH (18)?
Reduce culture from opportunities and beliefs
Reduce food from beliefs
Reduce just war to 20-25% for both

Belief resort- set them to default categories for now, but leave the added ones where they are as reformation bonuses or pantheons. Balance from there first and then see if some need to be re-arranged.
 
part of the reason liberty is so powerful is that the bonus production is useful for any purpose (wonders, units) where it should be more about building up your economy. this should be more limited and focused on economic production rather than general production. Right now you can get +5 production per city very early on (+1 city/wall, and +3 from the engineer slot on the wall). Which is crazy strong. I'd remove both the production from the wall and the engineer slot.

I have to disagree with you this time.
I tried to add row production bonus into the honor tree . that only doesn't change anything.
It's the production + settlers bonus production + free settlers + free workers and improvement bonus.
And moreover i think liberty is right, it's as strong as tradition in 3.16. Tradition is just super versatile although liberty doesn't fit in certain cases or for some civilizations.
you are trying to solve Honor and Piety issue by lowering the gap between them and tradtion/liberty instead of searching a unique way to bump the honor/piety to the tradition level.

By doing that, you make the game more boring : CEP production cost are already highest than vanilla one. You just add more turn when you move a scout and push to "Next".

I can add the same thing for tradition : for 25 to 15 food surplus.
Ok so most of the time you got 4-5 food surplus ( except if you are doing internal trade route)
with 15% you wont even have 1 more surplus, except in a starting town with granary and landed elite.
CEP have already trample enough Tradition : they nerfed acqueduc, they removed free acqueduc from Tradition ( which was the biggest culprit in its overpower )

If you nerf landed elite, you enter into the level down syndrome : things will start to get less and less tasty and you will drop the game.
I want to make meanful choice, which change RADICALLY my way of playing the game.

When i pick France with tradition or when i pick it with liberty, CEP gives me this feeling. I play in a really different way.

oligarchy - no change - needs some help - free archer?

I'm agree with you about the oligarchy weakness but don't give free archer.
Imagine you gave free wonder to liberty or if you gave free worker/settlers to honor.
You picked some signature effects to give it free to another tree. I dont think it's a good idea.
Yes oligarchy is a bit weak but give it something else. For example, add the culture bonus from military caste. Honor is always on the move, i never understood this talent forcing you to leave one unit behind you after each conquest.

aristocracy - no change - happy from 10th person in city is gimmicky though

Yes it should be a little higher, it's lame atm. Over the course, it will give you 1 or 2 happiness,Max in most of your cities.


No offence pal, you know I like you. But your solution is not even a band-aid. It's a handkerchief. it doesn't stop the haemorrhage, it just absorbs the blood.
You didn't even try to solve their major issue in the first place. What are you doing when liberty stack towns with free wall and tradition get 2 or 3, 15 citizens, towns ?
You are producing your settler which hinder you for a good 15 turns
Your worker for a good 20 turns
don't even try to get Temple of Arthemis.
And you get 1 production bonus every 6 production, leading if you didn't have any chance on strategic resources with 3 guys in mine to get 1 little production bonus.


I wanted to finish my alpha test with honor : i've got some issues because i add some lines in the dll to make it works and i need to solve the Mongolian issue but i will give you my ideas about honor ( i didn't even started with piety, the job is so hard with honor, i tested many iterations but it's what i like the most, feel free to criticize me)


First I want to solve the biggest issue with Honor, the "no production bonus early" and the diffilcuties to develop early

Opener :

Reveal barbarian
+15% strength against them
+killing barbarian give 200% of their strength in culture
Free defence unit

/*Should help you to get these barbarian early, you still have to kill one barbarian ever 5 for turn to get the tradition culture output*/

Strength and Honour ( noprereq)

+ 2 citizens in the capital
+ 0.5 production for each citizen in your capital.
+100% production for Barracks, Stables and Armories.
/*gives a honor a signature move, moreover it really helps them at the beginning to get their civilian/building/unit out.
The scaling bonus is to leave them a late game bonus, after my test, when you get 20 citizens in your capital, you have already got 100+ production*/

All Roads lead to to rome (noprereq)

Free Forge in your cities
+1 trade route
+50% food and production from internal trade route.

/*you can't have many cities under perfusion from internal trade route ( tech limited ) but it allows you to give a production push to some new cities or your new puppets.
It's hard to abuse because it's era related. (4 base + 0.5 per era)*1.5 and if you choose to have many internal trade, your gold incomes will be really low/*

Imperial cult :(no prereq)

+1 happiness from stable, barrack, forge, arena
Free Arena upon conquest
+2 culture and -25% culture border cost on conquered cities.

Professional army : (no prereq)

+15% army production
-50% upgrade cost

For Glory : (prereq Professionnal army )

A free general spawn
Your general can be upgraded to Field Marshal.
Field marshal and general have got the same combat bonus but field marshal can build academy and sign treaty instead of building citadel and start a golden age.
+50% GGP to great general and 25% to writer ( because they are the one witch write the epic poetry :p )


Open finisher :

+50% experience
+20% damage against cities
(Optional :can buy great general with faith when you reach industrial era)

I had to do choice. I kicked out military cast which should be a tradition talent.
Overall you have less happiness ( 1 less ) but the optimal case is less paintful to get.

For Piety, My idea would be to make this policy, the King of Pig backing with city connection bonus. The idea is to lighten the production queue with gold and increase the science output with international trade route while keeping the core of the three :

Free prophet, reduction of faith cost, reform belief.

i will make another post about your ideas about ideology : i must go working.
 
you are trying to solve Honor and Piety issue by lowering the gap between them and tradtion/liberty instead of searching a unique way to bump the honor/piety to the tradition level.

By doing that, you make the game more boring : CEP production cost are already highest than vanilla one. You just add more turn when you move a scout and push to "Next".

The cost factor is easily adjusted back down. That is, if we take out some production (and gold), we can also reduce the cost back down to scale it to some expected timeframe of "x turns to produce things". That's easy to do. It was scaled up both initially in the mod and then again a few months ago instead of taking out extra gold and production boosts. It would not be hard to move it down to 1.6x or 1.8x instead of 2x and bring down the cost ratios. I think this is necessary anyway because wonders can feel too cheap relative to buildings/units in some cases. The food reduction in tradition is still more food than the default game provides (+2 in all cities, not just the capital, +15% in all cities instead of 10%, extra food in capital as well). I think it would be balanced at 15%, maybe combined with a boost elsewhere in the tree (oligarchy). But maybe 20% at worst would suffice as a modest reduction. It's at 25% right now.

There are two easy ways to solve a balance issue. One is to improve the thing that is weak, and another is to weaken something that is clearly overpowered. I'd argue that those effects in liberty (free walls with engineers and the food rate in tradition) are overpowered and need to be reduced for balance in their own right. But I'd certainly agree Honor and Piety need to be improved. Which I intend to have us do, or seek out feedback on doing so.
It's the production + settlers bonus production + free settlers + free workers and improvement bonus.
I still think a significant part of the issue is that the production bonus on liberty not only fuels the expansion and build up but can do so more and more because it has more raw yield available to do other things as well as those special abilities. If it has more yield for specific things (settlers/workers/buildings) but the same or even less yield for units or wonders compared to honor/tradition, it should be on a more even base for comparison. If you're looking at this equation, I'm suggesting we take out the bonus production from the free engineer slot and the bonus production on walls and replace it with bonus production for building settlers/workers as now, and bonus production for making buildings. But not bonus production for making wonders or units (and oh by the way, GPP points for engineers to rush wonders with)

I think you and I generally have a philosophical disagreement about how to use Honor as a tree and thus how to improve it. I envision it as a premium early war tree that encourages making some wars early to knock down or out the competition, and then to help as that goes along for future wars, or to keep the war machine rolling. There are problems with that goal that it needs adjusting either of the penalties to expansion/early war, or it needs a slightly different goal as part of the tree to give it some flexibility to compete with the others. But it's always going to be a slightly niche effect leaning the player toward militarism. Even your design keeps some of those effects. I do think there are ideas that need to be sought out as a mixture to make it useful. This was more a starter post to see where we are and see if we can agree what's broken now or how and start making adjustments. That's ultimately where we can start to look for third ways to solve the balance issue, and maybe change the equation, not just try to balance it and risk imbalancing half a dozen other things. That's I think how we ended up here is a lot of changes were made at once without careful consideration of the factors involved. Balancing units and combat is relatively easy. Balancing the game economy, policy effects, religion, say, all at once is not.

I'm not sure what the coherent goal of your set up for honor is actually other than that you don't like that goal of early warfare or seem to think it is insufficiently interesting to make the tree attractive vs liberty/tradition. Maybe it is. Though I think the things you're adding or subtracting doesn't really absolve us of that question of what to do with it either. It seems to be "Rome", but there's a mix of stuff in there from the existing tree that doesn't fit within the setup. It doesn't really give us a signature "why do we want this"? answer. Piety at least has that. It's problem is the design we're using breaks the reason you'd want it (use of beliefs/religions).

Smith may be a good idea as part of the solution here. I'd still consider adding production to the barracks line to further the "unit" directed path, but the smith a) gives an engineer slot and b) gives a small shot of production itself for flexible use to compete with large tradition cities and liberty expansions.

Culture from conquered cities is interesting conceptually. It may be more interesting to do something where it comes off as loot spread to your existing cities as a one-time yield or a capital bonus than as a persistent yield as you may end up burning some cities to the ground and keeping others over the course of a game, such that a small culture yield won't do much, but a small culture yield every time will help your existing cities expand territory more rapidly and help your empire fend off tourism effects somewhat without a strong culture investment. This seems to be possible via the dll to make any yield from kills, or yields from conquests. The CS conquest bonus in honor right now is not very interesting as it is small. This is sort of where I am thinking of having something like food/culture from conquests and gold from kills. On that point (and the +2 citizen) we may not be very far apart that these could be interesting effects to reward military victories. We differ on how best to implement it.

I would right away say there's problems with the +4 happy/city in honor the way you're suggesting it. One it's boring, and still in the mold of "build a bunch of things to get something" that you suggested was a problem with honor v liberty/tradition anyway 2 a small point but, I'm assuming you mean the smithy, not the forge? 3 the arena bonus is unnecessary, as there's already a bonus to arenas in the mod. I've been trying to get rid of the arena happiness for months from the mod in this tree for that reason as it just isn't helping to have a building with 3-4 happy early on. And finally that's probably way too much happiness per city from an early game tree. We need to be looking for an alternative, more active, way to encourage expansion/conquest than to just give more happiness per city as an option. I also think you're adding too much happiness while also making it harder, not easier, to get at it in that way. 1 happy from a building somewhere in the tree is sufficient plus another source. And it probably shouldn't be the barracks (autocracy) or the arena (default).

I'd agree the military garrison pick is the most inconsistent to have in the tree and could be removed with a good replacement pick. It fits better elsewhere. I'd consider merging the happiness from it. Removing the gimmicky tradition 1/10 happiness in tradition, reducing the city garrison combat bonus, and maybe reducing or eliminating the culture from garrisons to make a garrison super-pick in tradition and that would still leave the amount of happiness available in tradition for much of the game the same.

Trade route I'd consider adding to the commerce tree. I think it would fit there better and I think there's a gap for a policy pick. Early game trade does fuel your economy, but there are limits on how many routes are in range, how easily they can be protected, and so on that I don't think extra routes would really be noticed until later on and I find the argument that it is thematic backward. Successful economic powers can go to war because they have large economies, but they're not automatically using their economy to fuel a military nor a state using their militarism to fuel their economy.

Bonus internal route steps on a late game tenet that we'd have to replace the effect. We may have to replace it anyway though. I'm not impressed with that effect as a part of ideology tenet. It should be in commerce or exploration instead.

I don't particularly mind that aristocracy will give 1-2 happy for most cities. In some version of an ideal balance point, that's about what you can get from the early-mid-game policy trees per city, where there is more than that in some trees now. It's just the way it does it is gimmicky. :) It's another one I've been interested in removing for a while.
 
First set of thoughts:

Spoiler :

England - two movement and a free or unique promo for ships seems fine over XP, nerf longbow?
Remove the experience, 2 movement is enough.

landed elite 25% surplus food +2 food/city +1 food/4 pop in capital (tone down surplus to 15%)
Tone down is needed, I think this is driving Tradition to be too good. I'm not sure why all these growth bonuses are concentrated in one super-policy.

opener - (culture from barb kills increased, barb bonus decreased) - basically fine but weak
Should we give it a small bonus to barb camp clearing gold?

military caste - no change (+1 culture) - meh - i would knock the culture back down to +2 and combine with other effects, maybe the immediate move purchase effect or a bonus to barracks
I don't like Honor getting passive culture, I would completely redo this.

Moving straight after constructing is potentially exploitable if it works for purchased units. Buy an entire army in one city in a single turn?

Consider putting +1 production per barracks line.
Consider a bonus to citadel.
These would be ok. Better than too much happiness.
Could we get reduced penalties from puppets? That would help to reduce the conquered-cities-are-too-weak-and-courthouses-are-too-late/expensive problem for early conquest.

tolerance +1 happy religious, multiple religions effects (meh).
I just hate the multiple religions effect altogether, it's too hard to use and thematically and strategically nonsensical.
Also, this is a big source of too-much-happy. Can we drop shrines from the effect? Temple + religious purchase building would still be decent.

unity GA, 50% less golden age - move this out of the tree.
Yes, get rid of it. This is so weak and boring.

mediation +1 faith shrine temple -33% faith cost (was 20%, combined two)
Might be a bit too much? +1 faith shrine/temple and -20% would seem to be fine.

opener +4 happy +2 faith 2x shrine - should be +2 faith and 2x shrine/temple construction and at most +2 happy
Remove all happiness and it's still a decent opener.
If there is flat happy bonus from any early tree it should be Liberty.

finisher - reformation effect - fine in theory, beliefs need resorted though as they currently break beliefs.
Absolutely, belief effects are what really drive Piety.

Resistance to missionaries and prophets is one option, but probably needs something else too. Policies that only reduce harm to you are problematic; it needs to get you something positive too.

opener - 10% production/gold (should go to 10% gold, +1 village)
+village gold on an opener? No way. +yield to improvements are incredibly powerful.

mercantile +2 non combat move, 25% domestic trade -25% cost road/rr
Possibly too much, 25% domestic trade is a significant bonus.

protectionism +1 gold village +1 production mine/mill (should go to 10% production, +1 mine/mill?)
There shouldn't be production bonuses in this tree. +1 gold to village is powerful by itself.

Guilds/entrepreneurs GM bonus GM rate, 2x GM gold
Should also boost customhouse gold, so you benefit from GMs regardless of how you use them.

maritime infrastructure +4 production coastal +4 gold coastal buildings (move to exploration)
Yes, I really dislike how naval buildings are in commerce.

Let's have the gold purchase cost reduction back.
I'd also prefer to have this tree more land-oriented and exploration naval oriented. So have this tree boost caravans, exploration can boost cargo ships.

Yes also to putting luxuries bonus back. No bonuses to buildings in this tree.

opener +2 CS Trade route - remove reveal all CS, pair with something else
I would much rather have +1 influence per turn from CS trade routes, but deeper in the tree.
Opener could be slower influence decrease.
I agree with getting rid of the penalty for other civs, that's annoying.

Scholasticism and trade pact seem like duds
Scholasticism is probably ok Trade pact I would cut. Put in influence from CS trade routes: patronage should be helping you get CSes and benefit from them, it doesn't need gold boosts.

aesthetics
opener 50% faster culture buildings
fine arts +1 culture from happy
cultural center +2 NW culture, 33% WW cities
artistic genius GA 25% rate, free artist
flourishing +1 culture village 100% archaeology - give free archaeologist?
ethics 2x theme 25% tourism effects
finisher - hidden antiquity? seems weak as a finisher

Consider moving the golden age effect from piety to this tree (better synergy with culture wins) +1 tourism on Great Works somewhere?
This tree as it is is still basically a dud. It needs to actually help you with tourism victory.
More culture doesn't do anything for you when culture doesn't win the cultural victory anymore.

I posted a design for this ages ago:
How about something like:
Opener: 25% faster great artists, musicians, writers. Unlocks Uffuzi.
Cultural centers: construct monuments, ampitheaters, opera houses, museums, broadcast towers 50% faster.
Artistic genius: Produces a free great artist. +1 culture from great works.
Ethics: ??? [+15% faster policies, and +1 tourism per policy] ???
Fine arts: 50% of excess happiness converted to culture, 25% of excess happiness converted to tourism.
Flourishing of the arts: +1 tourism from great works.
Finisher: doubles theming bonuses, allows faith purchase of great artists, musicians, writers.

colonization 3 pop city, 2 settler, 2 worker, 2 defence appear - fine
I rally dislike the expansion theme for the naval tree in general, but if we have to keep it I'd limit it to just this effect.

pioneer spirit civilian move +1, -50% road cost, 100% harbor build
Road maintenance reduction is already in commerce, it's fine to stay there.
Get a different policy effect instead.

homestead act - tier one buildings free (cut back on the buildings to 4 of the 6 monument, granary, library, smith, colosseum, caravan, and no barracks, stable, walls, lighthouse for free. Move some of these free buildings to ideology effects in order or autocracy)
This policy is fundamentally broken, it gives you massive amounts of stuff for free, it is just crazy, since it also affects all your existing cities and their maintenance costs. I don't think this can be solved by adjusting how many buildings it gives you.
Just delete it and invent something else.

Some things that could fit here:
Cargo ship production and trade bonus (and extra trade route?)
Production bonus to sea units might be interesting.
Tile yield bonus to isles and sea resources or fishing boats could be interesting.

revolution - +50% RA (no change) - I like the 2x GIs idea instead, but that steps on freedom ideology, a bonus to academy and/or GS rate seems fine here.
I agree that RA bonus is lame. Faster great scientists, larger bonus from bulbing scientists and academies would work fine.

counterintel +25% spy +2 happy from constable/police/NIA and 2x speed - remove and rename, replace
Agree that this doesn't work. Police bonuses should only be in autocracy. This policy used to be (and I wish it still was) Enlightenment, it should be about enlightenment values.

free thought +1 science village +2 lighthouse - go back to university effect, or possibly bonus to food or science effects here on farm/village only, no bonus on lighthouse. I don't get that one
+ science on village is pretty good by itself. A small university bonus too would be ok. Lighthouse bonus is bizarre.

secularism +4 specialist - okay at +2, +4 is crazy
Very powerful already at +2.

I'll look at ideologies later.
 
Ideologoies:

Spoiler :

These really need a full reworking, I don't think this can be done quickly.
But a few comments on what you have:
civil society (1/2 food for specs)
This is actually an extremely good policy, especially with all the other specialist bonuses (like +2 science).

covert action (2x CS rigging)
I find this very weak.

media culture (34% tourism with broadcast, bump it to 50?)
I think it's already decent as is.

Consider a +1 to farms/pastures/plantations/camps/workboats in this tree. Consider a bonus to landmarks. Consider a bonus to natural wonders?
I would keep away from yield bonuses in Freedom, leave it for Order.
Landmarks bonus is fine but super weak. Natural wonder bonus is even weaker. I guess one could merge together landmarks, natural wonders, and national wonders. "National Park System"?

5 year plan +2p/city and +1 mine/quarry (liberty and commerce steps on this, add a bonus to wells/mills/boats for starters?)
+1 production for mines and quarries and lumbermills would be good. I'd remove similar bonuses from commerce and liberty, they are unthematic.

worker faculties - 25% on factory 2x factory speed. maybe put science on factory from strategic resources (late), and/or decrease power plant costs?
Factory construction speed is really too late to be meaningful by the time you're in ideologies.

skyscrapers - 33% purchase cost buildings (makes little sense thematically here and just copies from commerce/exploration)
Disagree, this is quite powerful, especially as it stacks with commerce.

I'd consider moving -upkeep on buildings pick here
Agreed, that works well.

Bonuses from espionage buildings would be fine in here somewhere instead of in Knowledge, where it makes less sense.
I guess, Secret Police, though arguably better in autocracy. They still need to do something other than espionage resistance though. Can we get faster tech stealing for each espionage building?

Others:
I was okay with the unit upkeep formula from before. If it can be implemented.
I think it got too high at some stages in GEM, 10-20+ gold per unit per turn was crazy.

Otherwise, generally agree.

Another thing that was missed: revert specialist yields to vanilla.
3 production engineers are broken.
 
On other things I'm with mystikx

The cost factor is easily adjusted back down. That is, if we take out some production (and gold), we can also reduce the cost back down to scale it
Agreed.

I envision it as a premium early war tree that encourages making some wars early to knock down or out the competition, and then to help as that goes along for future wars, or to keep the war machine rolling.
Yup.

I would right away say there's problems with the +4 happy/city in honor
Game breaking.

I'd agree the military garrison pick is the most inconsistent to have in the tree and could be removed with a good replacement pick.
I don't feel strongly about it, but there is a case for having something that helps give you benefits from your army even in peacetime.
 
@Ahriman I have the yield change on scientists and engineers listed up there (buried at the bottom of the post). I'm going to split out general economy changes as their own post so we can focus this one on policies a bit more, so those can be debated separately (mostly).

I already split out unit changes to see how those would fare.

Policies we may need 2-3 threads going. One for honor/piety/ vs liberty/tradition and at least one for the other 8 (including ideologies).

I will however update the original post with some feedback.

The idea of increasing the national wonders from GEM was pretty significant, as it often doubled the percentages to 50% yields from the NW. I'd say that can stand on its own as a tenet. A landmarks-natural wonders one might be a little weak or could be part of a general buff to great (and unique) improvements.

Unit upkeep would be lower than in GEM. 10 is the most we'd want to see a unit cost (10 is the most I would propose a building cost also). It would have to scale up more smoothly than shooting up the way it did there.
 
The idea of increasing the national wonders from GEM was pretty significant, as it often doubled the percentages to 50% yields from the NW. I'd say that can stand on its own as a tenet.
Agreed, that would be fine, it's fairly general and it was quite fun in GEM.

But boosting landmarks and natural wonders are very weak and very narrow effects.
 
I was going to start a thread about policies/ideologies, as that is what I would like to work on first, (I actually said as much in my other recent posts) but I think I might just let mystikx21 run with it.

The discussions already going are more than enough to whet my appetite for some good editing.

So whenever we reach some form of consensus on anything, let's have a clearly outlined description posted somewhere so we can all have a chance to pick over it one last time and then I'll get cracking on the changes.

I like what I am seeing guys, this is back to something productive again I think.
 
One thing that needs to be considered is how the Patronage tree fits with CSD. There isn't one yet, but I think there needs to be some effect, whether from policies or elsewhere, that makes it cheaper to buy diplomatic units and buildings. (Philanthropy perhaps?) That way civs whose UAs and UBs lean toward wealth can still be strong for diplomatic victory.
 
Anything that affects the CSD mechanics should, IMHO, be handled by CSD.

While I would like to see greater integration with that mod, there will be some that don't want to use it. For those users we will need to provide our own variations to the Patronage policies.

The implementation of two separate policies is easy to do, we are already using sql checks to see if CSD is loaded and then adjusting accordingly.
 
CSD used to have an effect with Patronage to 2x diplomatic units. That was still in the data file just disabled last I saw.

I will start bolding things in the initial post that I've already gone and done for my own use or will do this weekend (in between weekend festivities), such that those should be easily adapted, or modified for balance. That way at least it can be playtested. Expired, if you have opinions on any proposed options, feel free to chime in.

I split off the policies into 3 threads so it will be easier to examine and make suggestions than my monster post to kick this one off. If they start to cross over with the other 2 in our suggestions, it's easy to link between them to say "uh, we're probably doing that already over here". I will keep this one as a major thread to amend as suggestions come in to see what we will be doing specifically once more agreement and discussion is had.

I will put a list together of the easy modifications and probably do most of them so they're ready to go whenever we want them to go live. They usually take a few minutes of data editing at most.

The main issues for policies debate are Piety (somewhat, much of that is what we need to do with beliefs really, other than Unity, which is weak here), Honor (a chunk of it needs to be done here), Commerce + Exploration (a lot of swapping around and removals here would be advisable, ditto Exploration + Order), one or two duds in Patronage and Knowledge need replaced, minor tweaks to Liberty/Tradition/Aesthetics, and the ideologies (all of them need a good deal of work, mostly because we haven't done any yet, all have duds that can be improved or need replaced).
 
Policies

Damn mystic, your disquisition are always well writen and argued.

But I think you talk too much from the logical point of view.
There is a difference between what I want my tree to do and what it is actually doing.
You're right, there isn't so much difference between you and me.
But I've done many empiric tests, many games, I changed my iteration of Honor, at least 10 times although i've got a fix idea : i want to make a viable early policy to super early aggressive civ.

France and songhai for example weren't targeted by my changes. They will always start liberty, finish it and maybe pick some honor/piety/patronage component before picking asthetic or weath.

I was targetting civs like Huns, Assyria, Zulu, etc .. which should be involved in early/late classical warfare but which are unable to do it (except if it comes from AI which has got higher yield for military civs )

I accept that my solution are one over many other but i clearly identified the issue.

The other policies ( Trad and liberty) offers many free components. This free your building queue and increase your growth/production/gold output.

For example, tradition get free food, growth bonus, free gold and free happiness. With the higher population you have more science, more gold enhanced by monarchy and free garrison.
More science allows you to get faster those wonder you need, and you can build building/workers with the free gold.

So i understood :
The Policy viability is highly linked to how it can free your construction queue.
You can turn the issue in any sense, you will always be in front of this problem.


Now let's talk about engineer slot :

I think you overvalue this issue. yes it's not that hard to get Engi in the first place for Liberty but you will not have National Epic bonus ( or you are not playing liberty as i play it, 5-6 town before renaissance ) and you will have some gold issue ( many building maintenance) that you will have to solve by working luxury first, and villages when they start to be efficient.

So yes, you have the possibilities but you never use it.

You really want to know how you steal wonders when you are liberty :
Chop the forest. you don't even need to lose your early engineer for this.

removing the slot in the wall will not change anything. I think it's a good to go change.

Tourism

Let's talk about tourism in CEP. CEP increased the overall culture output. But you didn't change the tourism output. It's hard to win a cultural victory.
I think we should increase the tourism output. I 'm currently testing with +100% increase with GreatWork, tourism and any raw values(belief, wonders, etc ..) which gave me good effects, maybe too good.

Which leads me to ideology :

First, tenets should always be attractive, because you have a chance to lose them if you are not fighting for tourism(changing ideology) or losing cities.
Atm it's not the case.
If I didn't complete rationalism, i will never put one point in ideologies. That's sad but true.(talking about that, why Secularism gives + 4 instead of +2 :eek:)

Ideology is meant to be the late game battle of Tourism but you can ignore it because these tenets aren't dat great and you will lose too much resources to get tourism high enough to keep your ideology without losing cities.
 
I broke the threads off into different pieces to make it easier to see what could be done with each one. So there's economic balance issues, policy issues (3 threads), and some unit notes. I am noticing that you're commenting on a few of these issues without having noted that I've already attempted to address them elsewhere. Maybe that will help to check there now that they're moved out of a monster post that takes a while to deconstruct. There are comments on culture v tourism, and secularism, among others. :) I've been busy trying to figure this out some now that it's in a half-completed stage what needs to be torn down and what can be salvaged and what is lacking. There's a lot of each that needs to be addressed quickly. I don't expect everyone to be keeping up, digest it as you can and find some things to feed into the hopper as things to try. Some I will tear down and some I will like. I'm like that.

I don't think of liberty as just an immediate rush with high production as you have to balance that with gold/happy. That extra free slot and extra production applies to every city throughout the entire game. So if you expand fast enough (which you should with a free settler and worker/settler bonuses), it basically piles up as extra units, extra buildings, a wonder or three, great engineers, and so on. It's not just the ancient-classical era rush that it is imbalancing, but it snowballs throughout the game as free production for every city for any purpose, far more than is available anywhere else. It needs to be hacked down some and changed into a narrower bonus rather than a super bonus. The extra units in particular is what crowds out honor as you don't even need to use it right now in order to attack or defend in war because liberty can outproduce it.

That's (along with the food in tradition) is a source of much of the problems with the free stuff in liberty/tradition being clearly better than honor, which is why I'd prefer reducing them to make it easier to balance the rest out. Buffing honor (and piety) from there is something we're still going to have to figure out. A few bits and pieces at a time and it will get there.

I noticed something else is that the gold city connection was changed at some point and it really negates the gold issue for liberty because it establishes an (absurd) amount of gold per connection that is too high (rather than per population). That too needs to be changed to be a more balanced formula.

Forest chop should also only be 40, I'd really like it lower than that (20 would be sufficient) but 40 was itself after a couple months of debate. I think this was finally changed in the mod itself to the lower figure, but it was several months ago that all of that happened (I always run my own mod-mod so it's been 30-40 for the entire time for me). I didn't check it yet as I've been fiddling with everything else. If 40 is still basically a wonder-winning machine, then it needs to go to at least 30. If it's higher than 40, it needs to go to 40. It was way higher before for reasons that I did not understand. Liberty gets a small bonus because it can chop faster, but chopping isn't a liberty-inherent world either (and there are only so many trees).

Culture-tourism - I would look to decrease culture sources somewhat (economic changes/beliefs mostly), but I'd be fine with some minor bumps upward in tourism as well. My main concern there is that culture was raised, sometimes a lot, without examining the impact on tourism. Culture should not be raised as much as it has been, but also tourism should get some help rather than just playing the nerf hammer on culture. I'd like to see bonuses to tourism come from tenets and aesthetics mostly (or religious effects), and I'd be comfortable to see some new sources if we can make them.

I would not look to raise sources of tourism by default though, if so, not by much.

Ideologies, I've commented similarly, there's no point in getting almost any tenet right now over the trees. Knowledge and Exploration basically blow them out of the way. I'd look to make those fixes so Ideologies compete for our late-game attention, and should usually win it. As with everything else, that demands both reductions in some of the more overpowering picks to streamline the value of the social policies to something more sensible but still powerful, and some fixes to tenets to make them more interesting or powerful, since they haven't gotten that attention from us yet anyway.
 
If science is needed by anyone, would it make sense to make Rationalism the "specialist" tree and move the science bonuses around all the other trees?

Otherwise I'm mostly fine with the list, and the above is just a question ;) Don't have time to write lengthy exposee ;)
 
would it make sense to make Rationalism the "specialist" tree
Not really, that's basically freedom.

It's probably best to avoid going back to bonuses for all the various specialist types, and adding them all together can be a bit overwhelming.
 
It seems the only way for the ai to win is per science.
Would be nice to let some leaders to focus more on diplo/culture victory.
 
If science is needed by anyone, would it make sense to make Rationalism the "specialist" tree and move the science bonuses around all the other trees?

I generally like some of the ideas in Eric's more tall-focused Knowledge tree but part of them were borrowed from ideologies and I would agree freedom should be the "specialist" tree. The ideas I liked had more to do with National Wonders effects (move the weak copied happiness on them here so Knowledge has a happiness component and/or put some science on them), and had to do with science from specialists rather than general specialist yields (faster great scientists, better academies/bulbing), etc.

There's way too much on specialists right now (+4 science per is crazy strong), but I'm definitely fine with the tree having some specialist effect.

It seems the only way for the ai to win is per science.
Would be nice to let some leaders to focus more on diplo/culture victory.
- I think this has several contributing factors
1) Science is easy to come by in the mod (either from buildings/GS/specialists/policies). As is tech stealing. Those can be toned down.
2) The tech tree probably needs to be sorted out better to make the space race harder and/or some logical gaps in advancement.
3) Culture is easy to come by in the mod, making tourism not so much, which makes a culture win harder. - Culture needs to be toned down some and tourism bumped a little bit (through policies/ideologies ideally)
4) building costs haven't been fully adjusted (mostly downward), making it harder for the AI to manage its economy well without taking a lot of free building policies, which cuts down on the available gold it has for other things or the growth it has available
 
mystik, i was thinking if you remove the engineer slot from the Wall, why not add it to the temple.
it's a small nerf to liberty and a good up to piety.
 
That's an option, it moves it back a bit, which I desire. Engineers on walls plus free walls is crazy early.

I'm not sure what the flavor fit is necessarily though (engineers from religion?). It's only an up to piety if temples get a production bonus back (I proposed they should). Otherwise, the up from piety is just making temples better as they already do. But it's an option.
 
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