(3-NS) Give territory option for peace.

[GeneralAmadeus]

Proposal Details:
Have a diplomatic option to get all the territory from the enemy that is within 3 tiles of your cities and at least 1 tile away from theirs. This would apply to all your cities. This is mainly an option for a peace settlement so the AI is not really supposed to accept it during peace unless you are very friendly and its only 2-3 tiles (but it should still be expensive) or absolutely terrified of you.

Reason:
This would be a good alternative when you just want the territory of a nearby city but not the city itself or to get back territory lost to a GG.

Amandment:
If AI is friendly or afraid: Will accept it if the number of tiles lost is <=5. Every tile is worth 600. Resource types bonus 200, luxury 500, strategic (horse, iron, aluminium) 800, strategic (oil, coal, uranium) 1200 in addition to the base land cost. GP improvements add 1000to cost.
If peace settlement: Small settlement divide values by half, large settlement divide by 4, whatever comes next by 8. So if AI loses and gives large settlement a regular tile with no resources or GP improvements is worth 150, while a tile with oil and manufactory is worth 700( [600+1200+1000]/4 ).

 

[rkkn]

yeah I have often wished it were possible to trade territory. the ONLY option is to grab an entire city that I don't even want.
lay seige to a city and then burn it down just so I can grab a couple of tiles next to my border

or, heck, even the reverse. my borders grew to some good tile 4 away that I can't even work, and my neighbor now hates me cuz he wanted that tile. would be nice to be able to just give it to him

 

[usadefcon1]

yeah I have often wished it were possible to trade territory. the ONLY option is to grab an entire city that I don't even want.
lay seige to a city and then burn it down just so I can grab a couple of tiles next to my border

or, heck, even the reverse. my borders grew to some good tile 4 away that I can't even work, and my neighbor now hates me cuz he wanted that tile. would be nice to be able to just give it to him

I made a mod that moves the border while at war. Not exactly what you were looking for but it might work for you:

Thread 'New Mod "Hex Conquer (Borders Only)"'
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/new-mod-hex-conquer-borders-only.657531/

 

[youngsteve]

Proposal Details:
Have a diplomatic option to get all the territory from the enemy that is within 3 tiles of your cities and at least 1 tile away from theirs. This would apply to all your cities. This is mainly an option for a peace settlement so the AI is not really supposed to accept it during peace unless you are very friendly and its only 2-3 tiles (but it should still be expensive) or absolutely terrified of you.

Reason:
This would be a good alternative when you just want the territory of a nearby city but not the city itself or to get back territory lost to a GG.

Why don't you use a mod like 'Citadels don't steal land'. This acts the same way, except it only takes free land, not land owned by someone else. Makes gameplay really good, with no more gamey tactics, & plays like a citadel should do, as a defence.

 

[GeneralAmadeus]

Why don't you use a mod like 'Citadels don't steal land'. This acts the same way, except it only takes free land, not land owned by someone else. Makes gameplay really good, with no more gamey tactics, & plays like a citadel should do, as a defence.

Because i want GG to be able to steal land? This idea is about a diplomatic option to take enemy land without their city.

 

[jpaolini]

I have often wanted this mechanic, too.

But I have assumed it never came to fruition because it removes a lot of the motivation for capturing enemy cities. If I'm NOT going for extermination, this mechanic could nerf a rival civ by demanding their most valuable tiles (eg. crucial resources) or bottlenecking them (eg. 'own a column of hexes preventing free flow of their units), or demanding tiles to lock-in a great positions (a very defensible pass or coast for a naval city). I think it would be difficult for the AI to put a 'price' on particular hexes. Conquering rival cities (either puppet or annex or raze) have real consequences which balance their upsides (pop, map locations, resources) with real cons (unhappiness, policy/science costs, national wonder costs, diplomatic hits). I hate those cons, too, but their cool my jets.

 

[Tekamthi]

I made a mod that moves the border while at war. Not exactly what you were looking for but it might work for you:

Thread 'New Mod "Hex Conquer (Borders Only)"'
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/new-mod-hex-conquer-borders-only.657531/

imo this mod and its variants achieve *most* of what OP wants, and though AI is well-suited to stumbling its way into oft-advantageous position using it, its not actually aware of the tiles being exchanged.... would be nice if it was, but i think this is the difficulty with OP proposal as well, its probably gonna be a real slog for the devs to build the logic for analyzing diplo trades on a per-tile-basis.

Anyway, I like the idea, and if it gets a sponsor, i'd probably vote for it.

 

[axatin]

This proposal should include an exact description of how the valuation of such a trade option is calculated. I can sponsor it next time if that will be provided.

 

[pineappledan]

Weighing the valuation for a proposal like this appropriately would be really difficult. I would guess that the only reasonable way to implement this is just to make it a multiplayer option, and have the AI just never go for it (impossible!).

The AI would have to be able to judge how many tiles it stands to lose, whether those are strategic chokepoints, how many resources it will lose, if it would lose a monopoly as a result, how many strategic resources it would lose and weigh that vs its entire stockpile, etc.

 

[GeneralAmadeus]

This is how I imagine it working.

If AI is friendly or afraid: Will accept it if the number of tiles lost is <=5. Every tile is worth 600. Resource types bonus 200, luxury 500, strategic (horse, iron, aluminium) 800, strategic (oil, coal, uranium) 1200 in addition to the base land cost. GP improvements add 1000to cost.

If peace settlement: Small settlement divide values by half, large settlement divide by 4, whatever comes next by 8. So if AI loses and gives large settlement a regular tile with no resources or GP improvements is worth 150, while a tile with oil and manufactory is worth 700( [600+1200+1000]/4 ).

 

[alchx]

The value of a tile with a GP improvement, and indeed any other productive tile, is much higher than 1000. Having loot from a tile, we stabilize happiness in all cities of the empire. With 1000 gold we have 1000 gold.

And for me it is doubtful that friendly AI should sell its territory. Every empire plays to win, why weaken yourself. Friendly AI refrains from capturing tiles with Generals or sending hordes of missionaries and prophets just because friendship is more beneficial at the time. There are no two first places in the game, there can only be one winner.

 

[CppMaster]

And for me it is doubtful that friendly AI should sell its territory. Every empire plays to win, why weaken yourself. Friendly AI refrains from capturing tiles with Generals or sending hordes of missionaries and prophets just because friendship is more beneficial at the time. There are no two first places in the game, there can only be one winner.

Yeah, but the other hand, it's not Chess. Civ is not only about winning, but also about simulating, diplomacy included. Otherwise, civ flavors wouldn't make any sense.

This is how I imagine it working.

If AI is friendly or afraid: Will accept it if the number of tiles lost is <=5. Every tile is worth 600. Resource types bonus 200, luxury 500, strategic (horse, iron, aluminium) 800, strategic (oil, coal, uranium) 1200 in addition to the base land cost. GP improvements add 1000to cost.

If peace settlement: Small settlement divide values by half, large settlement divide by 4, whatever comes next by 8. So if AI loses and gives large settlement a regular tile with no resources or GP improvements is worth 150, while a tile with oil and manufactory is worth 700( [600+1200+1000]/4 ).

That's a good start, although it may need to be tweaked in the future. Would you amend the proposal?

 

[axatin]

This is how I imagine it working.

If AI is friendly or afraid: Will accept it if the number of tiles lost is <=5. Every tile is worth 600. Resource types bonus 200, luxury 500, strategic (horse, iron, aluminium) 800, strategic (oil, coal, uranium) 1200 in addition to the base land cost. GP improvements add 1000to cost.

If peace settlement: Small settlement divide values by half, large settlement divide by 4, whatever comes next by 8. So if AI loses and gives large settlement a regular tile with no resources or GP improvements is worth 150, while a tile with oil and manufactory is worth 700( [600+1200+1000]/4 ).

okay, good. I still suggest that we defer the proposal for one month so that we can have a community discussion about these numbers. Then I could also check how the deal values for cities/resources are determined and we could maybe use some of that logic here as well.

 

[Tekamthi]

There's a lot of discussion here about the criteria under which AI would accept the sale of its plots -- but it strikes me that the more difficult aspect is how AI would determine which plots to try to buy?

The value of some tiles is obvious, perhaps, but others its very subtle and situational. I think this feature will result in significant human advantage

 

[pineappledan]

There's a lot of discussion here about the criteria under which AI would accept the sale of its plots -- but it strikes me that the more difficult aspect is how AI would determine which plots to try to buy?

That is not what is being proposed:

Have a diplomatic option to get all the territory from the enemy that is within 3 tiles of your cities and at least 1 tile away from theirs. This would apply to all your cities.

All tiles which fit into this category of being within overlapping city radii would be taken.

 

[Tekamthi]

That is not what is being proposed:

All tiles which fit into this category of being within overlapping city radii would be taken.

you just quoted a discussed parameter under which the AI would accept the sale of its plots -- perhaps my language was confusing, but regardless of how its structured, unless theres some logic everyone else has in mind that I'm overlooking, identifying when the correct time to buy or demand plots will be difficult and nuanced, i find it hard to believe we're going to get a symmetrical feature that is used equally by human and AI.

edit: just to be clear, i like the idea, and would likely vote for some evolved version of this, but it needs more detail. I suspect its in those details we may find the complexity to be non-viable, I'm not sure even how to address the AI's use of this as buyer/conqueror.

 

[azum4roll]

I dislike this proposal. It's better to ban territory stealing while a peace deal is active instead, while allowing territory steal as a casus belli for war (no warmonger penalty for declaring war for that).

 

[GeneralAmadeus]

It's better to ban territory stealing while a peace deal is active instead.

I fail to see how this has got anything to do with this proposal.

 

[Little Billy]

The AI should also consider what tiles can be stolen if a citadel were put on that tile

 

[alchx]

The proposal somewhat copies the unique feature of America - the ability to buy someone else's tile for gold, but here the affected party will receive gold.

Easiest option would be to copy this trait for all empires and doesn't require any complex algorithms to evaluate or balance diplomacy. Allowing a purchase from the city screen only on friendship and blocking on neutrality and worse. With the impossibility of buying back a tile within 5-10 moves. This will allow players to fully enjoy being next to a rich and aggressive empire like Persia, who will not hesitate to buy tiles near the player's cities and fully experience the feeling of someone brazenly trying to claim your property. Any game mechanics should work fully in both directions, at least you need to strive for this.

The mere fact of buying/capturing someone else's tile is an aggressive action and I see no reason why even a friendly empire should ignore the loss of a tile within a 3 hexes radius of the city.

If the empire is friendly. then you can always ask in advance not to found new cities near your borders and there will be no competition. The enemy will not agree - well, he will not sell the tiles.

If a player brazenly founds a city to capture competing tiles - the player knows what he is getting into, the action was purposeful and again there is no reason to make the player's fate easier.