(3-NS) swapping 'Parthian tactics' and 'logistics' for skirmishers.

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alchx

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I thought, why do skirmishers have 'logistics' at the same pole as 'infiltration'.

'Infiltrators' working behind enemy lines will be much more suitable for 'Parthian tactics' than double shooting at weakened units. It will be possible to really work behind enemy lines, ignoring zones of control and finishing off weakened units. Now it is extremely doubtful to do this on a Deity.

Also, +1 movement and ignoniring ZoC from Parthian Tactics will allow you to loot tiles behind enemy lines a little more often and restore health, since March is at the top pole of promotions.

And logistics is more suitable in a head-on collision, when armies come face to face and there is not much point in ignoring zones of control and +1 movement. The AI will line up units very often anyway to get flank bonuses.

What about swapping 'Parthian tactics' and 'logistics'?

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Logistics to the top pole.
In clashes between armies, double fire is more beneficial, and there is not much point in ignoring zones of control and +1 movement

Parthian Tactics to the bottom so that it can be combined with Infiltrators. Now the unit will be able to get a bonus in enemy territory, +1 movement (rob tiles more often), ignoring ZoC, which will allow him to survive in more difficult situations and avoid being surrounded by enemies more often.


Spoiler :

20221226034520_1.jpg

 
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Stalker0

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So you want logistics on accuracy and parthian on barrage?

The one weird thing is that logistics is on barrage for all other ranged units, so that's going to be a disconnect there.
 

ma_kuh

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Naming conventions for promotions are all over the place right now. We just passed Barrage leading to Range and Accuracy leading to Logistics.
 

alchx

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So you want logistics on accuracy and parthian on barrage?

The one weird thing is that logistics is on barrage for all other ranged units, so that's going to be a disconnect there.

Logistics to the top pole.
In clashes between armies, double fire is more beneficial, and there is not much point in ignoring zones of control and +1 movement

Parthian Tactics to the bottom so that it can be combined with Infiltrators. Now the unit will be able to get a bonus in enemy territory, +1 movement (rob tiles more often), ignoring ZoC, which will allow him to survive in more difficult situations and avoid being surrounded by enemies more often.
 

azum4roll

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You can't swap them without also moving Logistics to the bottom tree for the Archer line.
 

N.Core

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Swapping these two promotions not only affect Skirmisher, but also the entire Archer Line.
Otherwise, you have to make a newUnitCombatType, then duplicate these two promotions, and make it appear only for this new UnitCombatType.

Because the mounted ranged line is using the Archer UnitCombatType, and if you changed one promotion, you changed it for the entire units within the UnitCombatType.
 

alchx

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Swapping these two promotions not only affect Skirmisher, but also the entire Archer Line.
Otherwise, you have to make a newUnitCombatType, then duplicate these two promotions, and make it appear only for this new UnitCombatType.

Because the mounted ranged line is using the Archer UnitCombatType, and if you changed one promotion, you changed it for the entire units within the UnitCombatType.

In general and for archers, +1 Range will be better at the low pole, in combination with Infiltrators.
And Logistics is at the top pole when you need to deal as much damage as possible to enemy units with 100% health, standing behind your infantry. There is also a March on the top pole and you can just shoot twice without worrying too much about plundering the tile - the unit will still be healed.

It is strange for me that now there is a combination of Infiltrators and Logistics - if we roam deep behind enemy lines as one unit, then we must at some point in time loot the tile and heal or retreat to cover. At this moment, a double attack is absolutely useless for us, since part of the movement points has already been spent, and we can only use enemy roads after the middle of the game. But +1 Range or +1 Movement will be much more useful.
 
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Legen

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Why not only make either Parthian Tactics or Infiltrators available on both promotion lines? Like it is with the Cover promotions, nothing prevents one of them from being on both lines.
 

alchx

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Why not only make either Parthian Tactics or Infiltrators available on both promotion lines? Like it is with the Cover promotions, nothing prevents one of them from being on both lines.

Infiltrators + Marsh can be a very strong combo as the unit gains +25%CS passive defense. In addition, it will be analogous to the regeneration of the line of reconnaissance units.

Parthian tactics can be duplicated at both poles, yes. But, as I understand it, this is a replacement for the '+1 Range' promotion that archers and cannons have.
 

pineappledan

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okay, well regardless of your reasons, your proposal cant be implemented as described without some very weird workarounds, like implementing duplicate dummy promotions.

You either have to change some aspect of it, like extending the proposal to all archer units, or giving PT to both lines, or else it won't get sponsored.
 

N.Core

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It would be funny if this proposal is going to be a reason why mounted ranged finally have their own unit combat type instead of borrowing Archer type like the current VP.
Because I always find it weird that other types of units have their own unit combat type, while this one (that VP created) isn't. They should have one in the first place.
It's going to be a pain though for modmodders.
 

pineappledan

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won’t happen unless everyone decides that they would be fine if mounted archers didn’t have attack animations.
 

alchx

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But the game does separate these types of ranged units:
Infantry Ranged Units - archers, cbows. xbows,
Mounted Ranged Units - skirmishers, heavy skirmishers
Helicopter Gunship - descendants of skirmishers

But it seems to me Logistics for all these types of units is better at the top pole. An archer type unit with 2 movement points will most often be killed if it shoots twice behind enemy lines. Skirmishers with 2 attacks and 5 movement points also often cannot use both attacks, as they need to retreat after the attack.

Spoiler :

20230118052920_1.jpg


20230118052929_1.jpg

20230118052941_1.jpg

 
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N.Core

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But the game does separate these types of ranged units:
Infantry Ranged Units - archers, cbows. xbows,
Mounted Ranged Units - skirmishers, heavy skirmishers
Helicopter Gunship - descendants of skirmishers

But it seems to me Logistics for all these types of units is better at the top pole. An archer type unit with 2 movement points will most often be killed if it shoots twice behind enemy lines. Skirmishers with 2 attacks and 5 movement points also often cannot use both attacks, as they need to retreat after the attack.

Archer and Mounted Ranged are not separated in the database, so they're not separated in-game. It's only a trick that the Promotion Tree use (it uses its own table to add Mounted Ranged). If you look at the Civilopedia, the skirmisher line is called "Archer Units", which means that they're using UNITCOMBAT_ARCHER.
 

alchx

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If move Logistics for archers to the upper pole, then the similarity of promotion lines with siege units disappears. But siege units have Infiltrators at the top pole. Although, if the poles of the cannons are completely mirrored, then there will be a new general similarity of all lines.

Spoiler :

20230118053056_1.jpg

 

alchx

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Now this question:

1) If we exchange Parthian Tactics and Logistics for skirmishers, we will also need
2) exchange '+1 Range' and Logistics for archers
3) at the same time mirror the promotion poles of Siege Weapons to keep the overall location of Logistics (at the top pole), +1 Range and Infiltrators (at the bottom pole) for all units.

Will there be new complexities and incomprehensible inheritances for point 2?
Will there be any problems with mirroring?
 

pineappledan

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I'm not understanding this preoccupation with the promotion tree window. Whether field or siege is the line on top is arbitrary. They aren't comparable to the archer promotion lines.

The problem has nothing to do with the siege line. If you move a promotion for mounted ranged it will also be moved for regular archers, unless it's a promotion that it unpickable for 1 but not the other, like Parthian tactics. Your proposal to change where logistics unlocks can't be implemented as described now without some shenanigans.
 

DImensiondog

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Isn’t it just changing promotion requirements
 
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