2metraninja: hi there
2metraninja: at last
Ot4e: hi
2metraninja: its been a while, I've been on vacation
Ot4e: how was that?
Ot4e: как прошло?
2metraninja: ochen horosho
Ot4e: about the game
Ot4e: congrats with zulu
2metraninja: yeah, thanks
2metraninja: it was executed as expected
Ot4e: i havent got any reply from frenchies, and didnt send them any proposal about you so far
2metraninja: the greedy but sensitive French we did not expected to be honest
Ot4e: i dont like talking with the stone wall
Ot4e: i will do this today but still not sure what to send
2metraninja: we got answer at last
Ot4e: but i will invent something
2metraninja: it was short, arrogant and cold mesage
Ot4e: so, not even NAP or peace proposal?
2metraninja: telling us how they are offended how we declared war without any warning
2metraninja: after they thretened us with war 2 times in row
2metraninja: with increasing demands
Ot4e: you didnt kill their great person, right?
2metraninja: no, we spared it
2metraninja: but they acuse us of not keeping a deal. which deal we told them 2 times we want to renegotiate, because we see no good will on their side, but they said nothing about deals and just asked for the zulu land and thretened us with war
2metraninja: please, come to the 3-way chat, MZ is here too
Ot4e: this is act of good will, that you spared it
2metraninja:
http://us12.chatzy.com/68011063689707
Ot4e: i remember that you spared, but wasnt sure what it means
2metraninja:
MZ having 50 units divided on two fronts is not serious
2metraninja: we have more than 50 units right now
Ot4e: i understood that he will have 50 at our front and will have to split it later
Ot4e: i also cant understand how can it happend that he has 50 units ready but still cant attack
Ot4e: and it is important if he has them by turn 170
Ot4e: not by turn 175
Ot4e: or not even completely ready at turn 175
2metraninja: this is my concern, that he will make army ONLY if he is directly attacked
2metraninja: I want to know that my allies are commited and ready to protect each-other on the minute
2metraninja: I seen how people promise to bring help, and seemingly they do, but they react too slow and their allies get hurt while the slow ones are finally ready
2metraninja: I have the feeling we will be most vulnerable with having to defend 2 fronts from the very beginning. and I am very afraid we will be targeted by coordinated attack from RB and CivFR, to which we will not stand if we cant rely on you and on MZ to throw armies at RB without even hesitating for a blink of an ye
2metraninja: yey
2metraninja: eye
Ot4e: i know the difference between doing enough in the defence and being prepared to attack
2metraninja: from how you speak, I am quite sure you know the difference and that you will be there with the units and not hesitate to use them. what worries me is MZ will not show such readiness
2metraninja: what is even funnier is he said to me once he is afraid you will not be prepared for clash with RB
2metraninja: all this smells not good
Ot4e: i cant brag to get rifles so early
Ot4e: but we will prepare what we have
2metraninja: same with us
2metraninja: but having rifling early does not means you will throw rifles at RB if it is required
2metraninja: it means only you COULD if you wish
Ot4e: well if MZ fears that I wont be prepared, doesnt this mean that he has serious intentions
Ot4e: or looking for an excuse?
2metraninja: sounded as the latter
2metraninja: and out of a sudden when I was talking about "allies" he said "technically we are not allies yet" (with pulling out tongue emoticon, but still...)
2metraninja: and this is what I want to put out straight
2metraninja: everyone to say that he is commited and how much commitment it is, so everyone can judge if this suits him
2metraninja: I dont want our team to be under coordinated double attack from RB and CivFR and just then MZ (and you, speaking theoretically) to start prepare army, which can be sent in some 5-6 turns, when the enemy armies will be at our capitol
2metraninja: untill now, I was calm that even if someone is not so prepared to invade RB immediately, we will still be OK, because we will have big enough army to fend off RB ourselves while the late ally/es build enough army. but now, having to fight war with aggressive and wealthy French with their secure backyard, I am not so sure I can provide security for our own team from RB anymore. and because of this I want assurances from you and MZ
Ot4e: i still dont understand what has changed
2metraninja: changed is that I was ready to cover some less ready ally
2metraninja: now I dont have that luxury
Ot4e: technically and formally we are not allies
2metraninja: as I have to keep whole army on French border
Ot4e: i am trying to change this all the time
2metraninja: I am trying to achieve this too
Ot4e: but you all refrained from giving us any obligations
2metraninja:
how so if I try to bring this issue with the specific numbers few times already
2metraninja: and I said that we will bring whatever is needed from us
Ot4e: we all promised to bring units, last time we discussed the number it was 40
Ot4e: you said it is ok
2metraninja: just want to hear what you and MZ will bring and that you will have it there and will not hesitate to use it. just as what I intend to do
Ot4e: i dont expect that you drop everything and defend us
Ot4e: not sure what kind of help you do expect from us except what we have allready discussed
2metraninja: you mentioned that you expect us to bring most of the alliance units and I was somewhat OK with that, but now we cant bring most of the alliance units
2metraninja: we even need to have assurances from our allies we will be protected if it comes to this
2metraninja: I expect that if everyone say 40 units at t175
2metraninja: this means EVERYONE have 40 units standing 1 tile from RB border at t 175
2metraninja: AND
2metraninja: if RB makes a move towards any of us
2metraninja: then all other 2 invade RB like one - in the same turn
2metraninja: this is how I see our alliance and achieving mutual security
Ot4e: so I do
2metraninja: this is good to hear from you
2metraninja: now, we have to hear the same from MZ
Ot4e: but there are circumstances that are important
Ot4e: we expect to keep observation of their cities and some territory with spies
2metraninja: that is OK of course
2metraninja: to keep eye on them
Ot4e: and lets say if we get 50 units and see 50 units there in their city
Ot4e: we will not go in
Ot4e: and dont expect that you make suicidal attack either
2metraninja:
if we allow them to have the same number of units against EVERY ONE of us, then we are doing something really bad
Ot4e: in this case our job is to keep their 50 units home
Ot4e: so probably this means that they wont have 50 units at ottomans front
2metraninja: of course we will discuss tactic each turn
2metraninja: and see what is to be done
2metraninja: but to have standing army is imperative
2metraninja: not as MZ explain it: "If we need, we can draft heavy and being able to defend"
2metraninja: this is not alliance, this is.. just being good neighbors
2metraninja: even less
Ot4e: he fears to enter into closer relationship
2metraninja: because when good neighbors see your house burning, they jump to fight the fire, as they know their house is next
2metraninja: yes, he is individualist
2metraninja: I've been ally with him
2metraninja: in previous games
2metraninja: 2 guys attacked him
2metraninja: I came to help him because otherwise I would had to face very strong alliance who divide his land
2metraninja: and I hated one of those greedy guys too
2metraninja: so, I prepared army and attacked one of his attackers
2metraninja: I started to take cities from him and they came quick to realisation that I am their main problem
2metraninja: I took like more than half of the cities from the one guy
2metraninja: and even razed 1 city of the next
2metraninja: they stopped sending army towards MZ
2metraninja: all army they produced they throw at me
2metraninja: in one moment, I cant advance anymore
2metraninja: and we are in trenches.
2metraninja: I tell MZ - OK, help me a bit, attack them from behind
2metraninja: he says: but my army is not strong
2metraninja: well, how it come I can fight 2 other guys, while you tech?
2metraninja: one thing cant be denyed to him - he did not betrayed me
2metraninja: those 2 guys promised him ton of things to sign peace with them, so tehy can concentrate on me
2metraninja: he did not betrayed me
2metraninja: but he did not sent real army neither
2metraninja: he happily teched to Liberalism, built OU (he loves OU), then few turns from Rifles, our enemies surrendered and agreed on peace, where I keep some land from them
2metraninja: but MZ did not made big efforts to help me with military
Ot4e: i see that he is not that simple as he tries to look
2metraninja: lol, but of course
2metraninja: also, he is very good player
2metraninja: he is the best at Apolyton
2metraninja: I managed to beat him in one game where we played
2metraninja: and in the other, this one, which I described, he won
2metraninja: well, I had a sub, who did not played 30 turns for me in the beginning, so I was well behind when I got to play the game
2metraninja: and we were allies in the end, so we won as team, and he was Egypt on Mediterranean map, while I was Bulgaria with Balkan Peninsula only peaks and enemies from all sides, but it was his win at the end
Ot4e: you are true patriot
2metraninja:
I am
Ot4e: Rb is not that stupied to attack him
Ot4e: this is my main concern
2metraninja: you think so?
Ot4e: why would they?
2metraninja: I dont know
2metraninja: the same reason they would attack us or you?
2metraninja: the suspect we have alliance and will suspect even more
2metraninja: when we all close borders and bring armies on borders
2metraninja: I've been quite a few times target of dogpiles and secret alliances plotting to kill me
2metraninja: I know what works best
2metraninja: I use the priceless time when the plotters are not so sure what is going on and who will do the actual fighting for the alliance, concentrate my power, and hit one of them who seems the most exalted. He bends, start losing cities, starts to call his buddies for help, but help is not so easily organized and sent...
2metraninja: he start to insult them how they leave him to die and they start to feel not so sure it is a good idea to be on his place.. maybe they can tech a bit more while we fight and be better prepared next time...
2metraninja: no. no one will be better prepared next time
2metraninja: everyone is on his own again
2metraninja: dogpile dismissed
2metraninja: end of story, I steamroll them one after another in 20-30 turns
2metraninja: I fear this will happen here with RB too
2metraninja: and that is why I insist we have tight schedules and talk in numbers
2metraninja: what you think? sounds realistic?
Ot4e: I dont have such experience tbh, but theoretically your words sounds reasonable. Bad organized dogpiles are doomed.
Ot4e: But i dont think that just speaking in numbers can help
Ot4e: dont get me wrong
Ot4e: we can feed each other with numbers for a while
Ot4e: but the weakest link can still jump into bushes
Ot4e: if we dont discuss deeper obligations we will remain as "good neighbours"
2metraninja:
even worse than good neighbors as I already said
Ot4e: i asked MZ who we are?
Ot4e: while we were discussing the issue with INCA
2metraninja: and?
Ot4e: he said that he can only ensure me that he wont extend NAP with RB
Ot4e: this is still very much if it is honest
Ot4e: because if you cant promise them NAP you can promise anything to them
2metraninja: yes, it is much
Ot4e: but it is "good neighbour" behaviour
2metraninja: exactly
2metraninja: ok, I am all ears what is your idea for more specific obligations?
Ot4e: we are open to discuss it
I am not sure how to perform it formally. But it is something which will solve the current problem with calling each other "ally"
2metraninja: heheh
Ot4e: i proposed that we agree to compensate each others "extra" loses caused by slow-actions of each other... I know that it is really bad agreement I used to refrain from. But may be you know better way to motivate each other to protect allies
2metraninja: I dont know better way of motivating each-other than having that army there and gave your word to use it to protect your ally
2metraninja: compensating I dont think will work
2metraninja: in theory - maybe
2metraninja: but how will work in practice? I lose 1 good city. how you compensate me?
2metraninja: if I lose 10 knights because you did not showed with your maces, maybe you can give me 10 knights. but when? and how? and if you can build 10 more knights just like that, what stopped you from building them in first place and send them in the fight?
2metraninja: not to mention that until you build 10 knights and send them to gift me to compensate me, there is a good chance that you dont have who to compensate
2metraninja: money? but how money will save my cities from the advancing enemy?
2metraninja: this is the best thing I know: to give schedule. Like: On t160 I will have 8 catapults produced. I wil have gunpowder and start producing muskets. on t165, I will already have 15 catapults and have whipped/drafted 15 muskets. on t 170 I will have 10 more knights to add to this force. on t175 I will add 5 more muskets and 5 more knights to this group and will have them 2 tiles of RB border.
Ot4e: i know that compensation wont work literally
Ot4e: [16:02] 2metraninja:
<<< and if you can build 10 more knights just like that, what stopped you from building them in first place and send them in the fight?
Ot4e: this is the key point
2metraninja: exactly
Ot4e: but you are right
Ot4e: no idea how to use it practically
Ot4e: schedule is enough for you?
Ot4e: i dont understand how it works
Ot4e: i say I bring 10 catapults to turn 170
Ot4e: you say 10 is not enough, bring 20
Ot4e: or you cant say "bring 20"
2metraninja:
I can
Ot4e: i dont know how we find mutual language
2metraninja: we agree that 50 units each, 15 of which are cats is OK
Ot4e: i say i bring horse archers
Ot4e: you say, bring tanks
Ot4e:
2metraninja:
you are veteran, you know what can measure up with 15 cats, 25 muskets and 10 knights
2metraninja: if you say: I have maces only, then bring 5 more
2metraninja: 30 maces instead of 25 muskets
2metraninja: or if you say: I have a lot of HA, then bring 20 HAs instead of 10 knights
2metraninja: you know what a solid army can look like
2metraninja: such 50 units strong army can stop 30 rifles in the open
Ot4e: last time you were happy with the number of 40, now you are pushing that 50 is not enough
Ot4e: you can raise value each turn
2metraninja:
you said 50 units
2metraninja: in the chat
2metraninja: and I am following
2metraninja: now, once we give our words we are allies, we can follow and adapt
2metraninja: if we see RB is not preparing more army, then it may turn out that even only 30 units each is OK
2metraninja: if RB whip 50 more to their current 60-70 units, then even 50 units each of us is not enough
Ot4e: this is of course ok
2metraninja: all those are only my thoughts
Ot4e: no idea why we are even discussing this, of course we will follow our words
Ot4e: and make armies
Ot4e: 50+-15 units
2metraninja: we are discussing this, because I fear MZ will keep his usual play - he builds army ONLY if he is forced to
Ot4e: but are you ready to share all the plans among us
Ot4e: what you research
Ot4e: what you build
Ot4e: where you stand
2metraninja: of course
Ot4e: what you get
2metraninja: of course
2metraninja: this is the way to have good allies
2metraninja: otherwise, just pleasant neighbors
Ot4e: i havent noticed that anyone of us shared some plans, except MZ to my wonder
2metraninja: well, you never asked, but we talk with MZ about techs, etc
Ot4e: you never ask
2metraninja: for example, we got agreement that he gets the GM from Econ
Ot4e: it is what I answered RB about longer NAP
2metraninja: tbh, I dont even know what techs you have. I think of you like you are big enough boy to can manage your own
Ot4e: you have alphabet
2metraninja: it is MZ who always seems to have doubts, have plans and insecirities and he ask me
Ot4e: we have it
2metraninja: yes, I do have
Ot4e: i dont believe your demohackers are eating their breads for free
2metraninja: but we are more concentrated on our own research, why would we try to follow your research or control it?
2metraninja: heheh
2metraninja: the difference is we see you as friendly nation
2metraninja: and we dont have to keep eye on you all the time
2metraninja: we are happy with your successes
2metraninja: this gives us stronger ally
Ot4e: yeah successes
Ot4e: well
Ot4e: yes
Ot4e: but we havent crossed the line behind which we share all the information about our development
Ot4e: each other
Ot4e: did we?
Ot4e: this line passes between good neighbours and allies
[ | Edited 16:24:55] Ot4e: and what did MZ promise you for taking economics safely?
Ot4e: this must be agreed a while before
Ot4e: if you negotiated this
Ot4e: because you were not really that close lately to require any negotiations
Ot4e: imho
2metraninja: I am absolutely honest when I say we consider you and MZ as our allies and we are of course good-intended with you both
2metraninja: it was a bit after we got Taj
Ot4e: for me it would be much more simple if we say we are allies. This constructions with "good neighbours" tbh confuses me so much
Ot4e: i feel that we are good neighbour of civfr when they are discussing how to divide us with RB
2metraninja: heheh, but this "good neighbors" was only to picture what we feel being sometimes, not that we think it is a good thing
2metraninja:
CivFR are a big issue on their own
2metraninja: those guys play it insulted
2metraninja: and threatened us that we lost the game after we told them it will serve none of our interests if we keep fighting.
2metraninja: are they playing so insulted that they will throw their own chances for win only to fight us endlessly and thus giving the win to RB?
2metraninja: or they are so over-estimating themselves that they believe they can actually kill us???
2metraninja: it will be pity if it is the first one, that they decided to fight us endlessly and give RB the win
Ot4e: stop, i am not telepathist
2metraninja:
lol, see - I am discussing with you our deepest fears and hopes and you say "stop" then you say: but we dont discuss our plans
Ot4e: i just mentioned that we dont give each other as much info we could. But I like your way of thinking
Ot4e: you could notice that I am quite open with you
Ot4e: and give you my thoughts
Ot4e: but not because we have signed something
Ot4e: returning to civfr
Ot4e: i think they will fear to enter war with you
Ot4e: and will rethink about this
2metraninja: yes, this is how we build trust to each-other
Ot4e: doing all dirty job with our hands is more suitable for them I beleive
2metraninja: I just dont know about them. they sounded so cold and arrogant, I thought we must be missing something, because as we see things, they are not in their favor at all
Ot4e: at leaast they answered
2metraninja: yes, I believed they are bunch of bluffers, who threaten us with war but will bend and back quick when they see our army
2metraninja: but now they act decisively
2metraninja: they razed one size 7 city we captured from Zulus
Ot4e: how?
2metraninja: how they razed it?
Ot4e: yes
Ot4e: you didnt protect?
2metraninja: it was far - far behind zulu lines
2metraninja: we sent stack of knights to capture it with surprise
2metraninja: and we see 1 French knight standing right beside it
2metraninja: and we are afraid zulu will empty again their city so French can take it easy, while throwing all their army at us
2metraninja: and we decide to storm the city and take it first, so we have claims on it. also, we believed we will capture Zulu capitol in the same turn, so we eliminate Zulus and we start negotiations with French
2metraninja: but Zulus are built defense already in that city
2metraninja: all they emptied from their border city with Frenc, they put there
2metraninja: and they whip elephant, upgrade impi
2metraninja: we are afraid they whipped more elepanth
2metraninja: and we storm
2metraninja: but we have like 6 knights to capture the city
2metraninja: we lose one and we capture it with just 1 knight in it
2metraninja: and then we send letter to French telling them we consider this the end of the reason to fight
2metraninja: as Zulus are no more
2metraninja: and everyone took whatever he could
2metraninja: we tell them we know they can attack our newly captured city and take it, but we prefer not go there, as we will consider this as if they want real war and we have 50 units 2-3 turns away
2metraninja: they attack and raze it in answer
Ot4e: are you going to attack them in the response?
2metraninja: I wanted to just secure the front and if they come with their main stack, destroy it
2metraninja: but as you know I was on vacation
2metraninja: and the general who makes war turns attacks their knights in responce
2metraninja: but we see they have somewhat serious stack and they bring more army
2metraninja: and they collect money to upgrade more units
Ot4e: it is better if they collect money than researching
2metraninja: a lot of guys in the team shout for full scale war, to mobilize and go in offense, but I calm them down for now
2metraninja: I want to try once more diplomacy, where all start to shout at me we have nothing more to tell them
2metraninja: and shout for blood
Ot4e: they have temper
Ot4e: i mean your team
2metraninja: yes, quite a temper
2metraninja: damn, I have to go, will talk to you from home
, although sometimes leads to a happy marriage, too 
The only reason why we desperately need allies against RB is that we refuse to make NAP with them. And Bistrita, whose judgement proved to be excellent so far 
, says that he would rather be left at the end the competing against RB, than CivFr. At the same time, all our diplomatic efforts are geared towards peace with CivFr and war with RB - that is towards endgame with a civ we are not confident we can outtech and actually consider a more dangerous opponent 
