(39) Proposal (amended): Netherlands Polder buildable on Coastal sea tiles instead of fresh water tiles.

[Dragonfabri]

Currently polders are buildable on fresh water tiles and marshes. While definetly better than vanilla in terms of usefulness, it's still a bit underwelming both in terms of yelds and DEFINITELY in terms of flavour and historical accuracy.

Problem:

• Historical accuracy: Polders are not accurate historically, if they are meant (as the civilopedia entries imply) to represent the Dutch efforts to claim land from the SEA. This isn't represented at all by... building better farms and... cleaning marshes?!
• In-game balance: While Polders are much better in VP than in Vanilla (thanks to more tiles being able to have them and closer bonuses to their yelds in the tech tree), they however compete with way earlier improvements (farms), and late game the yelds of a farm could be better than those of a polder. I don't think Polders need yet even more yelds, but rather more tiles to host them without competing with other common-use improvements. Coastal sea tiles are the perfect solution, even without any adjacency boni, since they'll be much more common and improve otherwise useless tiles

Proposed change

Polders can be built on Coastal water tiles or Marshes only.
Polders can be walked on as a land tile. Cannot be built over sea resources.
Can only be built when adjacent to 3 land tiles at least.
Can be demolished, result is usual border displacement of units on it.
+1 production if near another polder

 

[rkkn]

while this sounds like a can of worms from a balance side, it's definitely a very interesting proposal from gameplay, and, indeed, historical accuracy perspectives.

there's also the question of, could a polder serve to form a land bridge between two bits of land separated only by coast?

 

[Dragonfabri]

while this sounds like a can of worms from a balance side, it's definitely a very interesting proposal from gameplay, and, indeed, historical accuracy perspectives.

there's also the question of, could a polder serve to form a land bridge between two bits of land separated only by coast?

On the balance side, it can be easily nerfed/buffed on convenience: you can remove "over time" yeld gains on the tech tree, make them only improve based on adjacency, or just "once built that's what you get" in the most dire of cases.


I think it opens up many possibilities as you said: truly reclaiming land from the sea could make a neighbour assailable by land, not only by sea.
Intentionally removing the improvement while being attacked can halt a land assault for quite a bit: heck, this strategy was used in WW2!
Units already on the polder before being destroyed/pillaged can be displaced, just like it happens when someone buys the tile you are on.
Aesthetically the Netherlands would truly be unique as well this way, with beautiful reclaimed coasts.
Civilopedia itself says "God made the World, but the dutch made Holland", this would truly prove it

 

[Recursive]

• To avoid making Polders too good, I'd just make them buildable on non-resources tiles, end of story.
• .If you want to make them even better, a +1 production adjacency bonus to other polders would be historically accurate.
• For even more historical accuracy, you can make the improved tiles walkable by land units, but of course if it poses too many problems it can be avoided

Please only make one proposal per thread - this is several.

 

[Dragonfabri]

Please only make one proposal per thread - this is several.

Well the proposal is the title, these are just suggestions and elaborating my point.

 

[SwirlSlayer]

I don't know if you've tried it, but a version of your proposal is present in Hinin's Tweaks mod mod. With that you can build Polders on Sea Tiles (with the restriction that you have 3 adjacent land tiles). Maybe that's what you're looking for?

 

[Dragonfabri]

I don't know if you've tried it, but a version of your proposal is present in Hinin's Tweaks mod mod. With that you can build Polders on Sea Tiles (with the restriction that you have 3 adjacent land tiles). Maybe that's what you're looking for?

Thank you for the suggestion, but yeah, that implementation could use a bit of work, 3 adjacent land tiles would really restrict Polder usage to levels even less than vanilla.

 

[Recursive]

Well the proposal is the title, these are just suggestions and elaborating my point.

Suggestions are proposals. You can propose one set of changes per thread, but not multiple options in one thread.

 

[Dragonfabri]

Suggestions are proposals. You can propose one set of changes per thread, but not multiple options in one thread.

I see, i'll edit the OP then with what i personally suggest

 

[pineappledan]

I don't know if you've tried it, but a version of your proposal is present in Hinin's Tweaks mod mod. With that you can build Polders on Sea Tiles (with the restriction that you have 3 adjacent land tiles). Maybe that's what you're looking for?

Thank you for the suggestion, but yeah, that implementation could use a bit of work, 3 adjacent land tiles would really restrict Polder usage to levels even less than vanilla.

I would also like to see the polder changed into a coastal improvement; we have the code to make it happen, and the polder's current role as a side-grade to the farm that makes you re-improve all your rivers in Medieval is a hassle.

I like @Hinin's implementation, and I think it is the right choice. I lets you bridge islands off the coast, fill bays, lakes, and internal seas. Allowing the polders to just be built on any coast with the only restrictions being not on an archipelago or resource will result in the Dutch just eradicating all coast. The result will look ugly, and not create an interesting puzzle for players re: settling location. The Dutch would just be another coastal civ, agnostic to the shape of the coast. The 3 land tile adjacency restriction re-prioritizes filling inlets and inland seas.

You also don't want most UIs to be too common, with some possible exceptions (eg Eki). For most civs, if you are getting more than 5 of your UI near each city you are doing well. Even very common, easy UIs like Polynesian Moai tend to cap at 8.

If it were me, I would keep @Hinin 's 3 adjacency restriction, but I would also make them buildable on Marsh, just so they have a few more inland options. Hinin has the Polders buildable over resources though, and I don't like how that hurts tile diversity. I would also have kept the yields as 321, and not have added .

 

[Rekk]

It needs the 3 adjacency restriction.

I don't know if Hinin's is allowed in lakes, but it shouldn't be.

This will still completely fill up inner seas, which I don't like.

 

[ilteroi]

again, nice idea. but it will probably lead to a lot of issues with unit movement, water tiles which are passable for land units is not well tested if it works at all.

edit: come to think of it, would ships still be able to use those plots?

edit2: don't want to get too involved here but have you considered polders on coastal *land* which give a bonus per adjacent coastal *water*?

 

[Rekk]

again, nice idea. but it will probably lead to a lot of issues with unit movement, water tiles which are passable for land units is not well tested if it works at all.

interesting; Pontoon bridges were a thing in Firaxis' Civil War scenario, but I guess I never checked to see if the AI used them.

 

[pineappledan]

I can sponsor this change. Buildable in lake or else it requires DLL

 

[Rekk]

This changes needs DLL, no? Do we have a column that makes it only work in Coast and not Lake?

 

[pineappledan]

If lake blocks it then it needs DLL. I don’t think that’s necessary or even desireable. As people have said, the core issue with the proposal is getting enough placements to make it feel worthwhile.

 

[Dragonfabri]

Fine by me if lakes can't be excluded

 

[ilteroi]

i'm not going to touch the pathfinder. it might just work fine but you're on your own.

 

[pineappledan]

I’m pretty sure the AI uses the pontoon bridges just fine?

 

[Recursive]

I can sponsor this change. Buildable in lake or else it requires DLL

I'm unsure if I can consider this sponsorship valid if there's uncertainty about whether the AI can move across them properly.

When it comes to unit movement and tactical AI, ilteroi is more or less the only one who understands it, so that does give him an effective veto on changes which require it.

Also, the proposal cannot be amended at this stage.