3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread

Discussion in 'Mods Repository' started by Blue Ghost, Oct 13, 2017.

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  1. FoxOfWar

    FoxOfWar Prince

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    Gave Russia a go. Pogost, particularly its' upgrades, feel very underwhelming even when going wide (I mean well, Russia, 'course you're going wide, but anyway...). If possible, I would spread its' upgrades slightly wider tech-wise, and make them way heftier in terms of yields. Especially the third one is more faith in a part of game where you probably don't give much (if any) value for additional faith yields - if you have a religion, you're rather likely to already have spread it as much as you can, enhanced it and bought all the religious buildings by the time you hit Architecture (especially as going wide is already inherently better for raw faith gain anyway). I suppose it does enable Russia to get more leverage out of certain heavy faith-spending beliefs... if you did nab a religion anyway, as Russia has no helps for actually getting one - other than being encouraged to grab as much land as possible.

    Contrast the 'completed' Pogost to any other unique renaissance+ unique building and it feels rather weak. At least to me.

    Licorne is hard to comment as in combination with Enlightment Era you get it an era-and-half too early due to tech placements - obviously it's powerful when you get it way too early. Will have to play another game without EE. :p
     
  2. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    The conquistador is part of base VP. Unless there was a conflict with a feature of this mod, or something which we consider a bug, we aren't likely to change it.

    If you feel strongly about the conquistador's balance, I recommend you make a post in the Spain leader balance thread
     
  3. Hinin

    Hinin King

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    Who are the people you've sent a message to, @pineappledan,@adan_eslavo ? I can try to contact the other ones.
    Have you contacted JFD to obtain a way to contact Danrell ?
     
  4. FoxOfWar

    FoxOfWar Prince

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    A general observation from this mod-mod:

    Conquering is harder. Mostly because while you have a second unique military unit... so does everyone else. So the odds of the player you're invading also having a unique they can leverage are quite a bit higher, and the civs that have two uniques around same era become almost impossible to run over during that time.

    Mind you, I am not saying this is a bad thing, just a thing that happens as a natural followup from more unique military existing.
     
  5. Hinin

    Hinin King

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    When the modmod is released, we'll have to hear the numerous opinions on that matter, but I tend to agree with you. To me, it makes things even more interesting, because there are a lot more combinations and power spikes to be aware of (beware the Spearman/Ballista combo of the Iron-less Rome, it is quite devastating, as I discovered...).
     
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  6. Giza

    Giza Chieftain

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    I'm in the middle of a game with russia. Licorne is an interesting unit for it's abilities so I would leave it as-is (I also played the EE version but I did not research millitary techs at that time).

    Pogost is... meh. The fact of having an extra building is interesting, but I think it lacks power. Especially it's Church form.

    One idea I had is adding an instant bonus when you unlock the later stages, based on the number of Pogost you build (culture would be nice, since Russia has few culture bonuses). So basically you could have to build them ASAP and time your research of Banking and Architechture to have a nice culture bomb.
     
  7. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I think we should up the city connection bonus to 10 on stage 2 (total of 15%). Maybe also give 2 faith to the stage 3 itself (it currently gives no yields, but stages 1 and 2 do)

    Re: yield on upgrade, that would have to be added via the lua, because the buildings won’t trigger an sql. I wouldn’t give culture because the lack of culture for Russia is imo something that defines the civ. They get bonuses for border growth, but no benefits to culture.

    One idea: at each stage, give a 1 time boost in each city. 20*number of pogosts on empire in border growth points (does not contribute to policy)
    Edit: I don't like my idea. The ostrog already gives a huge boost to border expansion. The building needs something else, I'll keep thinking

    Possible idea:
    1. 50:c5gold: in city as instant boost, scaling with era, when Pogost (stage 1) is built. 10:c5gold:/10:c5science: in city for every Pogost on empire when Stage 2 and 3 are added
    2. just keep tweaking the various stages' yields. Currently the building gives:
    • 2:c5gold:/2:c5culture:/2:c5science:/6-8:c5faith: in excess of normal customs house
    • 2:c5gold: per trade route in excess of normal customs house
    • 15%:c5gold:boost on :c5trade: city connections
    possible additions:
    • 5% more :c5gold: on :c5trade: connections at stage 3
    • +1:c5gold:/:c5production: on villages at stage 2
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  8. Hinin

    Hinin King

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    Just did a small playtest with Songhai. As always, some things to say :

    - the faith cost of the Mandekaly cavalry is still the same as the one for the Horseman (I was able to found a religion, and chose Zealotry as an enhancer ; it was funny to see the MC costing 110 faith, three times less than the Sofa, unlocked at the same tech)

    - the Strategy part of the civilopedia for the Sofa needs to be reworked (it states that the unit is a bit less fragile, but the unit has as much CP as a CBM ; it should say that the unit has a weaker ranged attack than the CBM instead)

    - the MC has a Historical info part in its civilopedia that is just wrong : it talks about the difference between the European knights and the ones found in "the Middle-East" (hey... the musics are the same for African, Arabian and Mesopotamian civilizations, so it's only a detail... right ? what were the devs thinking...). I think a totally new HI is needed for the unit (at least in another mod)

    - suggestion : I don't know if the Qadi court is fully coded, but I think the "gold gained for each Citizen not of the main religion of the city" principleshould be changed into "gold gained for each Citizen in the city not of the main religion of your empire". I don't know if it is possible, but it would be, I think, more faithful to reality (it wasn't because a city had a majority of non-Muslim that the Muslims would suddenly become the one having to pay special taxes) and more exploitable as a mechanic (it would allow the Songhai to really take advantage of the conquest of empires of other religions without having to convert all the conquered cities). What do you think ? Is it possible to do ?


    For the Pogost, I don't think an instant boost would be a good idea. I would prefer simply increased bonus related to the ones already present on the building. Later, when the modmod is released, we'll have the data/reviews necessary to take important decisions related to this UB.
     
  9. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Oops. The Carolean is likely wrong for faith cost as well. I'll get on that
    Noted, I'll fix
    I'm reluctant to fix civilopedia entries that Firaxis wrote. It seems like make-work, and I am not sure what we are trying to prove by doing that.
    That's doable, but the reason why I designed it this way is because I am worried it would be OP. Using majority religion in city means less gold overall, and I am worried it would get out of hand otherwise
     
  10. FoxOfWar

    FoxOfWar Prince

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    I would probably lean towards Pogost gaining one-time instant yields on upgrade - it would serve as a nice chunk of raw yields making it more "worth it" to beeline them a bit, and more importantly make the actual upgrade event more noticeable. As it is currently, even with the notification of the upgrade, Pogost does not change or add to your gameplay in any real meaningful way so it kind of goes by without thinking.

    Something like (in addition to things currently in):
    10 :c5gold: and 10 :c5science: when Pogost is built, or upgrades to Stage 2/3, for each Pogost already in empire.
    Additionally, 15 :c5faith: on Stage 3 for each Pogost in empire (marking the point where the Eastern Orthodox Church became the official religion, as it were)
    (So a post-Architecture Pogost would yield 30:c5gold:/30:c5science:/15:c5faith: for each Pogost in empire, when built.)

    Instant yields also don't help with unhappiness, so it plays into the balancing act of keeping a wide empire together - more cities mean more Pogost yields when you get to it, but Pogost itself does not necessarily make it much easier to keep your folks happy.

    Just thoughts off my tired head, heh.
     
  11. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Overhauled all civilopedia entries, including some pretty heavy rewrites.

    Pogost update:
    Spoiler :

    --- Stage 1: Market:
    +4 :c5culture:Culture and +2 :c5gold:Gold (up from 2 culture)
    1 Merchant Specialist Slot
    +4/2 :c5gold:Gold to all Trade Routes to/from this city respectively. (up from 2/2)
    :tourism:Tourism boost with target civ when trade route completes, based on culture output
    +5%:c5gold: Gold from:c5trade: City Connections
    +1 :c5gold:Gold to Villages and Towns
    --- Stage 2: (unlocked at banking):
    +2 :c5science:Science
    +10%:c5gold: Gold from:c5trade: City Connections
    +1:c5gold: for every 5 citizens
    --- Stage 3: (unlocked at architecture):
    +2 :c5faith:Faith
    +2 :c5faith:Faith to Shrines, Temples and Monasteries in the same city
    +5%:c5gold: Gold from:c5trade: City Connections
    so city connection bonus at all levels (total of 20%). Deleted gold for pop on stage 2 and replaced with gold on villages/towns on stage 1. We deleted that bonus from Dutch polders, so it is now moved here.

    In other news, the imperialism overhaul is going to silence the haters for Shophet. GAs got some serious love in the upcoming patch. Civs that can build courthouses in all cities (mongols and songhai) also got a major boost from the Imperialism policy overhaul.

    Also, I wonder if we might have to nerf the Indonesian kampong, given how much the new imperialism tree is buffing ocean tiles
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2018
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  12. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    @adan_eslavo do you think it's time to do a make the new post, sending this mod into beta?

    It's just the relatively minor glitch on goedendag, and the graphical glitch on yamato left.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2018
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  13. Asterix Rage

    Asterix Rage Warlord

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    I'm waiting this next release to give a new try. It will be with VP-EE obviously (or nothing) I well understand that some adjustments must be done to run together VP-EE and More Unique Components for VP.

    For now I'll just need 14 Civs that doesn't interact with VP-EE features
    The question is what are the civs I'll have to unselect through RAS?

    I believe those are not eligible :

    Aztec (Eagle > Two-handed Swordsman)
    China (Xiafan Guanjun @ Warships)
    Denmark (Lanskib >Carrack)
    Iroquois (Prowler >Light Infantry)
    Korea (Kobukseon >Carrack)
    Morocco (Corsair @ Warships)
    Ottomans (Great Turkish Bombard >Field Gun)
    Persia (Qizilbash >Uhlan)
    Russia (Licorne @ Flintlock)
    Siam (Seir Morb @ Flintlock)
    Spain (Armada @ Warships)
    Sweden (Hakkapeliitta >Uhlan)
    Venice (Great Galleass >Galleon / Fusta >?)
     
  14. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Eagle is a swordsman replacement. no change.
    Hakkapelliitta and Qizilbash would both remain at lancer I think. Hakka and Carolean are not meant to be contemporary. Qizilbash were from the 1500s.
    Turkish Bombard is a unique unit class unlocked in the medieval. It's unaffected by EE
    Great Galleass and Fusta stay as Galleass replacement
    The viking age was in the 9-11th century, Langskib should definitely stay in medieval.
    Iroquois Prowler can stay at musketman (they are meant to be circa 1600s)
    Siam Seir Morb stays as VP field gun replacement (renamed howitzer in EE)

    Greek (Klepht -> light infantry) --currently gatling gun
    Portugal (Cacadores -> light infantry) --currently gatling gun
    Korea (Kobukseon >Carrack)
    China (Xiafan Guanjun @ Warships)
    Morocco (Corsair @ Warships)
    Russia (Licorne @ Flintlock)
    Spain (Armada @ Warships)
    England (White Tower -> Tower of Buddhist Incense) -- currently hermitage
    Dutch (Waag -> weigh house) -- currently bank
    Austrian (Schutzenstand -> gunsmith) -- currently arsenal
    French (Grande ecole -> academy) -- currently public school
    Brazil (Sambadrome -> Salon) --currently opera house

    It's going to be a fair amount of work to get those buildings back into line, but it's the best thing, IMO. :undecide: I know others seem to like EE, but I've always been reluctant to use it; the new buildings are so underpowered compared to base VP ones
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  15. Asterix Rage

    Asterix Rage Warlord

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    (VP-EE + More Unique Components for VP issues)

    So, I should avoid those civs for now ?

    Probably infixo will write a patch to fit them together when MUC4VP will be at a mature state.

    Your are right. But I believe one of the goal of VP-EE is to bring an entire new era without disrupt the all game balance. When a final ver1.0 of VP will be released (one day?) more pertinent features will be done on Modmods.
     
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  16. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    A difficult balance to strike for sure. If EE buildings were in-line with the power curve they would contribute to yield inflation. EE buildings being lower value, however, might make a player feel cheated if one of their UBs is in there. The only one exception being the gunsmith, that building looks well within power curve. Perhaps it's actually better to keep the UBs where they are?

    I hadn't realized that the weigh house was not where the bank was. I thought EE swapped the weigh house for the bank... Maybe I'll ask Infixo if that's a change worth making
     
  17. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Here's the updated inca picture for the new OP:

    Edit: attached zip file containing all the picture files
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  18. Asterix Rage

    Asterix Rage Warlord

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  19. Jarula

    Jarula King

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    Why not give conquistadors the exploration promotion that quint has?
     
  20. Hinin

    Hinin King

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    Spoiler Long message :

    Just played a game with Germany (using the last version of the mod on github) :

    - I had luck with the Slaganz and managed to form an early alliance with a CS. You can befriend a CS by converting bbs on its borders, then heal quickly these bbs inside its territory and give the units to the CS (it is best giving the Brutes to CS, while keeping the Hand-Axe for yourself). Hand-Axes are really the units you want in the early game : usually, they get killed quite quickly because of the anti-bb combat bonus but, once converted, they become quite a threat.

    - An interesting thing I've found is that converting bbs is a good way to obtain ruins located on neighbouring islands, since bbs tend to be able to embark sooner than you'll usually be. Moreover, these barbarians also often have a "mobility" promotion attached to them (like "double movement in f/j", or "double movement in hill"), and this promotion will stay on the unit even after upgrade (so, in case you begin the game in a zone where there is a lot of f/j/hills, you'll soon enough obtain a force able to quickly navigate in these areas).

    - After obtaining a few bbs, attacking a neighbour civ is often the best solution : you'll want to limit its gold revenue and its mobility by harassing it with your freshly acquired units. Pillage its first few improvements, capture its workers (and disband them in your territory for extra money) and assault any settler appearing, using your growing force. The Slaganz won't see much of the fighting (use them to convert some more bbs, in groups of three, or fortify them in key positions to provide some needed ZOC, so that your Hand-Axes can enter and leave combat easily).

    - Obtaining some gold is very important, since whenever the enemy will begin bringing spearmen to the frontline, your Slaganz and bbs will begin losing ground (you can still use terrain and flanking manoeuvers to defeat stronger units, but it's quite dangerous, and, if there are Horsemen of War elephants, it is important to retreat quickly). The best way to acquire gold is through CS quest, razing distant bb camp, and pillaging (you'll want to keep one or two bb camps near you so that you can "farm" Hand-Axes).

    - The Classical era will be tough for you, so you want to obtain Composite bowmen as quickly as possible (by upgrading your H-A), and then focus on researching Chivalry to obtain the Teutonic Order. I have found that the Goddess of protection is a good pantheon for Germany, since it makes forward settling more viable (allowing you to cycle heal your H-A more easily, and so harass more consistently) and synergizes with the TO (your Barracks will give 4 faith, in addition to the defense bonus). If you can found a religion, then, with the help of the Fealty policy tree, your cities will be tough nuts to crack.

    - If you have hard time obtaining allies, don't forget that Germany gains a lot from trading with CS (thanks to the Hanse), and so that allying other civs isn't so important in the Medieval era. You can use the "Discipline" promotion, in combination with the "Moral" and the "Chapter" promotions, to have units with a base combat bonus of +30 % CS, and so overpower your enemies. Be sure to have missionaries follow your armies, for they will convert conquered city to your religion in no time (thanks to the "Chapter" promotion) and will allow you to obtain a Reformation belief quicker : choosing Crusader Spirit will make your holy wars even more frightening (+60 % CS in the territory of players with other religions...). => Authority>Fealty>Imperialism>Autocracy for maximum faith and combat bonus (#TeutonicPanzer).

    - On the other hand, if you aren't so successful, choosing Statecraft can help you gaining money and converting some CS with your spy, while synergizing with the Hanse
    => Progress>Statecraft>Industry for a more peaceful Germany (but with production through the roof, classical VP Germany style).

    Other things to note :
    - there is a problem with the Carolean : the unit has come back to its pre-modmod state (so unlocked at Gunpowder with 29 CP), but is considered a Fusilier replacement and is upgraded to... a Fusilier...
    - the civilopedia articles needs to be cleaned a bit (there are missing indentations and quotations marks), and the HI info for the Slaganz article needs to be corrected (it is the Teutoburg forest, not Teotoburg).

    As alwyas, thank you for your hard work ! :)
     
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