[Vote] (4-01) Proposal: Helicopter Gunship tweaks

[azum4roll]

Voting Instructions
Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" if you'd be okay if this proposal was implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if this proposal wasn't implemented.

You can vote for both options, which is equivalent to saying "I'm fine either way", but adds to the required quorum of 10 votes in favor.

All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.

VP Congress: Session 4, Proposal 1
Proposal:
1. Helicopter Gunship can also hover on ocean tiles.
2. Tank Hunter I and II promotions have +50% bonus against armored units instead of +25% (works on both attack and defense).

Rationale:
1. Helicopter's ability to hover shouldn't depend on ocean depth. If it can hover over shallow water, it can do it just as well over deep water too.
2. The Tank Hunter tree leads nowhere, so the promotions have to be stronger than the trunk ones (which unlock great T4 promotions like March and Parthian Tactics) to justify being picked.

You can test the changes with the following lines of SQL:

UPDATE UnitPromotions
SET CanMoveAllTerrain = 1
WHERE Type = 'PROMOTION_HOVERING_UNIT';

DELETE FROM Unit_FreePromotions
WHERE UnitType = 'UNIT_HELICOPTER_GUNSHIP' AND PromotionType = 'PROMOTION_HOVER_UNIT';

UPDATE UnitPromotions_UnitCombatMods
SET Modifier = '50'
WHERE PromotionType IN ('PROMOTION_HELI_AMBUSH_1', 'PROMOTION_HELI_AMBUSH_2') AND UnitCombatType = 'UNITCOMBAT_ARMOR';

UPDATE Language_en_US
SET Text = '+50% [ICON_STRENGTH] Combat Strength VS Armored Units.'
WHERE Tag IN ('TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_HELI_AMBUSH_1_HELP', 'TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_HELI_AMBUSH_2_HELP');

 

[Tekamthi]

would take some new code, but i'd prefer some kind of compromise where helis embark if their turn ends in ocean -- i played with OP change (minus the promos) for a long time and its quite powerful, infringes heavily on role of navy, which is already somewhat limited on certain map types in particular.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

I do like using Helicopters along with my navy. This will just make it easier.

Another thing I was thinking of: what if we consolidate the 4 Helicopter Promotions (2 Mobility, 2 Anti-Tank) across 3 Promotions, not 4?

 

[pineappledan]

would take some new code, but i'd prefer some kind of compromise where helis embark if their turn ends in ocean -- i played with OP change (minus the promos) for a long time and its quite powerful, infringes heavily on role of navy, which is already somewhat limited on certain map types in particular.

Agreed. If the helicopter can shoot and scoot in water that makes them too similar to submarines

 

[azum4roll]

Agreed. If the helicopter can shoot and scoot in water that makes them too similar to submarines

• Not invisible
• Attack penalty vs ships
• Can attack land units
• Weak to anti-air
• Can stack with ships

I don't know, they seem pretty unique to me.

 

[KlHannibal2]

I like the current setup that helicopters have to embark in ocean from a realism point if view. Yes, they can technically hover over deep water, but they don't have the range to do so consistently. And naval helicopters are not what the gunship units represent IMO.

 

[azum4roll]

Deep and shallow water is not dependent on distance from land. I can understand if helicopters have to embark on water tiles more than 3 tiles from land, but water depth is arbitrary.

 

[der_weihnachtsmann]

Deep and shallow water is not dependent on distance from land. I can understand if helicopters have to embark on water tiles more than 3 tiles from land, but water depth is arbitrary.

but its an uncomplicated way of dealing with it

 

[KlHannibal2]

but its an uncomplicated way of dealing with it

And a good approximation of distance to land.

 

[azum4roll]

I sponsor this. The code is already there.

 

[Recursive]

Proposal sponsored by azum4roll.

 

[Slyceth]

Personally I've never seen a use for helicopter gunships, as any military units unlocked past combined arms see very rare use, as that's the time someone usually wins a culture victory.

 

[Dimmy]

No to 1 but yes to 2... so i guess it a nay.

 

[saamohod]

No to 1 but yes to 2... so i guess it a nay.

Same.
I'm against ocean helicopters simply because I don't expect an attack heli on combat mission in the middle of the Atlantic.
The second change looks interesting though.

 

[azum4roll]

What if we make it so it can't attack from (deep) ocean tiles but still don't need to embark? One of the reasons I don't like ocean embarkation is that unlike all other land units, helicopters can never benefit from fast embark/disembark from cities/forts/citadels, creating a scenario where a land unit can cross a narrow but deep strait AND attack on the same turn but a helicopter cannot. It's supposed to be the most mobile unit besides GDR...

 

[Tekamthi]

What if we make it so it can't attack from (deep) ocean tiles but still don't need to embark? One of the reasons I don't like ocean embarkation is that unlike all other land units, helicopters can never benefit from fast embark/disembark from cities/forts/citadels, creating a scenario where a land unit can cross a narrow but deep strait AND attack on the same turn but a helicopter cannot. It's supposed to be the most mobile unit besides GDR...

some kind of compromise between OP and existing state is necessary imo.. the existing implementation does feel overly restrictive, but a completely free no-embark is too far in other direction. Also, i think blocking attack when in deep ocean will require new code? may be a lot of work for small change, tho I'm not sure when it comes to dll stuff.

Maybe we could use the existing EmbarkFlatCost and DisembarkFlatCost database fields to "soften" the helicopter embark without requiring any heavy dll lifting. In a roundabout way this will achieve the 'no attack from deep water'. I think these are just boolean fields so theres not much room to fine tune them, but I'd probably vote in favor of proposal setting both of these to on in lieu of disabling the heli embark altogether

 

[pineappledan]

In any case, massaging the proposal is something that needed to happen a week ago.

 

[azum4roll]

some kind of compromise between OP and existing state is necessary imo.. the existing implementation does feel overly restrictive, but a completely free no-embark is too far in other direction. Also, i think blocking attack when in deep ocean will require new code? may be a lot of work for small change, tho I'm not sure when it comes to dll stuff.

Maybe we could use the existing EmbarkFlatCost and DisembarkFlatCost database fields to "soften" the helicopter embark without requiring any heavy dll lifting. In a roundabout way this will achieve the 'no attack from deep water'. I think these are just boolean fields so theres not much room to fine tune them, but I'd probably vote in favor of proposal setting both of these to on in lieu of disabling the heli embark altogether

Still better than the old hardcoded check of whether a land unit can do ranged attack on water is based on whether it has the PROMOTION_HOVER_UNIT promotion (the one that forces embarkation in deep water). I've already changed that some months ago, so it's probably just another line of code for this one if you're ok with it staying hardcoded.

I'll code this whether the proposal passes or not. It won't affect anything in game.

 

[Tekamthi]

Still better than the old hardcoded check of whether a land unit can do ranged attack on water is based on whether it has the PROMOTION_HOVER_UNIT promotion (the one that forces embarkation in deep water). I've already changed that some months ago, so it's probably just another line of code for this one if you're ok with it staying hardcoded.

I'll code this whether the proposal passes or not. It won't affect anything in game.

i'm unclear what code you're proposing to change -- perhaps I was not aware of the subtleties of promotion_hover_unit, specifically i was not aware that it had any hardcoded features connected to it. Would be nice to have as many of the "promotion" abilities unhardcoded and available for modders to manipulate, if this is possible.

My last suggestion was merely a 'best-available' suggestion to accomplish some kind of middle-ground on the embark, not necessarily my "preferred" implementation -- there are probably better ways to handle it if changes beyond the database are possible. Anyway looks like the voting here is much tighter than it initially looked, maybe this change goes forward after all!

If it does pass I'm planning on experimenting with lua modmod to force any helis to embark at turn-end, if in ocean tile at that point. Not sure if I can force a unit that does not normally embark, to embark, but something like this would be preferable to me.

 

[besset]

I think this is a fun proposal gameplay-wise. Realism-wise i think it's fine too, there are attack helicopters that operate from frigates and destroyers