4/14 Patch - Freedom

Stalker0

Baller Magnus
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Dec 31, 2005
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So I ran a game taking a really strong look at Freedom. I've heard some people ragging on it lately so I decided to give it a strong look, and having done so, I agree its got some weaknesses.

So ultimately we use trees to accomplish victory conditions. At this point in the game, we are starting to focus and push for the finish line, and so its really a question of....how does the tree accomplish that?

Justification in Spoilers:
Spoiler :

CV
  • Creative Expression is a decent Tier 1 tenant to start the CV path, and cranks up the culture to help speed through the tree, potentially give up to 12 culture per city. The +2 tourism is dwarfed by cultural revolution in Order, but its a Tier 1 vs Tier 2 tenant, so thats more time to let the earlier bonus do its work. This seems fine.
  • In theory Avant Guarde should be good with this, letting us get musicians and great writers faster. But I honestly question how good it is, Order's Free GP is definitely stronger than this tenant, and of course its bonus weakness the longer you wait to take it, but if you take this first you weaken Creative Expression.
  • Media Culture is the capstone here, with the theoretical advantage that the +25% tourism is permanent and every working, while Autocracy and Order's tenants are less consistent. But I would argue that both of the other trees technically have 2 "multipliers". Autocracy has Cult of Personality, but honestly Air Supremacy is a pretty solid tourism tenant as well, you often get airports much quicker and much more plentifully than any other tree, so that is free tourism you are not getting otherwise. Further, order can get the ball rolling strong at tier 2, where freedom has to wait until Tier 3.
Conclusion: Though Freedom has long been thought of as the "Tall CV tree", I question that now. It has some good tenants here, but Order and Autocracy can manage strong tourism play with styles that veterans know how to exploit. Ultimately freedom just doesn't possess the same multipliers that the other two trees do.

SV
On the surface, Freedom should be a decent SV tree. But realistically when you look at its science output, its pretty abysmal. New Deal is the only science boost until Tier 3, and if we say you have 5 academies that's +30 science (with capital multipliers lets call it and even +50), that's still pretty abysmal compared to Order and Autocracy's options.

Now Freedom's Tier 3 does offer a decent science boost (though its late at tier 3), and the gem is the boost to part production. So i think freedom can compete in the space ship part race, but until then, its science output is not all that great.

Conclusion: Freedom has plenty of power in the final sprint to the finish line but doesn't get a lot of help in the race leading up to that. Its science base is actually pretty poor compared to the other trees.

DV
I actually think DV is Freedom's strongest playstyle. The Tier 3 Treaty Organization is a solid tenant, the influence is nice but honestly the bonus votes are a big deal, they can make or break a hegemony vote. There's not too much else going on here but I can say the same for the other trees. I think where Freedom struggles is on the maintaining of CS in the face of autocratic players going around sniping them, which has become a common tactic in high difficulty play.

Conclusion: The most solid part of Freedom's arsenal, its really the military weakness of freedom that hurts you here.

Military
The move of the +50% supply bonus from pop from Freedom to Autocracy was a major loss, and one I don't think was warranted. I have never played Autocracy and needed more supply, it always find a way to work out. But for Tall freedom games sometimes I really really do need that supply. That said, Military Draft is still a decent overall warfare tenant.

As far as Their Finest Hour, I mentioned before that while the B17 is "nice" it is not transformative like Order's Guerilla or Autocracy's Zero. Those units redefine how you conduct warfare, the B17 just "bombs stuff". I would still like to give the B17 more uniqueness.



My Suggested Change Summary
  • Civil Society (T1): Removed (merged with Urbanization).
  • Universal Suffrage moved from T2 to T1
  • Urbanization (T1): Farms, Camps, Plantations, and Unique Improvements gain +4 :c5food:. Specialists require 2 less :c5food: (minimum 1)
  • New Deal (T2): Landmarks and GPTI gain +6 to the appropriate yield, and +2 tourism.
  • Their Finest Hour (T2): Cities gain +33% CS and 1 additional air slot. Can use B17 bombers.
  • Transnationalism (T2): Every owned Town counts as a Franchise. Each turn, increase the chance that a corporation will appear in a foreign city to 15% (normally 5%). Global Franchise maximum increases by 25%. +2 :c5culture: from corporation offices.
  • Self-Determination (new T2): Liberating cities gives 15 XP to all units, 50 :c5influence: Influence with all City-States, and 40:c5science:, scaling by era and city population. The liberated city gains an Arsenal, 6 Partisan units, and is healed to full.
Older Version Ideas
Spoiler :

My Suggested Change Summary
Here is my change list for discussion, below in a separate thread I go through all my rationales.
  • Avante Garde (T1): Boredom needs reduced by 20%. All specialists generate +1 :c5greatperson:
  • Civil Society (T1): Removed. Universal Suffrage moved from T2 to T1
  • Urbanization (T1): Farms, Camps, Plantations, Villages, and Unique Improvements gain +4 :c5food: and +2 :c5gold:.
  • Arsenal of Democracy (T2): Unit gifts to a CS give you gold equal to half the unit's purchase cost. When you liberate a CS, the CS is healed to full and immediately gains all defensive buildings. You gain triple the normal influence bonus, and all of your units gain +15 XP.
  • New Deal (T2): Landmarks and GPTI gain +7 to the appropriate yield, and +4 tourism.
  • Their Finest Hour (T2): +33% City Strength to all cities and allied CS. Can use B17 bombers (still needs a unit upgrade just not sure what yet)
  • Transnationalism (T2): Immediately gain franchises in 3 random cities once your Corporation is obtained. (the rest the same) 15% random chance, +25% franchise max, +2 culture from corp offices.
  • Alliance for Progress (Brand New T2): Gain 10 influence with all known CS when you expend a GP. 10% of :c5gold: and Tourism :tourism: in a city is converted into :c5science:
 
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I quite dislike that the freedom wonder requires 2 declarations of friendships to get a vote, where Order and Autocracy require only 1 defensive pact/vassal/captured capital. If DV Freedom is already strong enough, I'd rather have its T3 tenet nerfed and this buffed.
 
Not all people agree, but I really support all ideologies being viable for all victory types, while encouraging different ways of doing so.

About freedom and science: I’d think the specialist and food bonuses in T1-T2 actually help freedom to work all scientist slots more easily. But if more science is needed, a cool way would be to double (or more!) the science gain from banks on investing. Ideally from the capitalism tenet! (could be moved to T1, and combine all specialist perks in a T2 civil society tenet).

I used to really like the freedom approach to domination, which heavily relied on draft registration, thus gold and protecting external trade routes. I wouldn’t mind the army supply increase back; I wonder what initially led to remove supply from freedom? Or maybe some fancier approaches to increase supply: a % of excess happiness, of gpt, of franchises, of number of active external trade routes? Or make x units supply-free whith increased upkeep (private contractors).
 
I’d think the specialist and food bonuses in T1-T2 actually help freedom to work all scientist slots more easily. But if more science is needed, a cool way would be to double (or more!) the science gain from banks on investing. Ideally from the capitalism tenet! (could be moved to T1, and combine all specialist perks in a T2 civil society tenet).

What I generally find is that I can work all scientist specialists (and normally do at this point), so the extra food in theory works more diplomats and then maybe other specialists. So it can give a little more science, but its probably more economic than science focused. I do like the idea of the "bank x2" so I may include that in some of my suggestions. Ok time to dig in.
 
Freedom Tenants

The Good (or at least the Alright)

Creative Expression (T1): A good foundational tenant for CV play, and solid culture provider. It does its job.

Economic Union (T1): Often best when combined with TR focused civs (Morocco, Portugal, Ottoman, etc), it can be a niche policy, but in that niche it does a solid job. TRs give all sorts of benefits, and if course if there are a lot of freedom civs in the game the gold bonus is icing on the cake.

Draft Registration (T1): Though it was severely weakened by losing the supply bonuses, the core bonus is still very useful, and frankly the only true military advantage that Freedom has.

Capitalism (T2): I don't always need more happiness when I'm going freedom, but this policy does manage it pretty darn well. What makes it good is it directly hits local happiness, which is often the biggest remaining happiness issue (especially for Tall play), and this directly addresses it. The +1 gold on specialists again is just icing.

Universal Healthcare (T1): Free is always good, and the free hospitals are nice for civs that are struggling on their infrastructure (which tall+artistry+rationalism often is, having all the techs in the world but not enough hammers to build the things tech gives you). And then the culture bonus continues your culture momentum.

Space Procurements (T3): For SV its a decent policy, as long as the rest of the tree gives you the science engine to get to the SV....the ability to buy parts can shave us a LOT of turns in the late game science race.

Treaty Organization (T3): Its a good DV tenant that does its job solidly.

Media Culture (T3): Its just alright, but if we plug some of the holes earlier in the tree it should still be good as is.


The Bad

Civil Society / Urbanization (T1): The issue is that both of these policies exist, and basically do the exact same thing. No one works food to really grow at this point in the game, its to run specialists. So instead of 1 good policy to do that, we get two watered down ones. We need to kill one of them and improve the other.

Avante Garde (T1): This is a policy that looks good until you compare it to its brothers in other trees. +33% to GP sounds really good, but honestly there are so many % bonuses at this that this bonus gets watered down.

Arsenal of Democracy (T2): Just to confirm I wasn't crazy, I did a quick check in my last game to see what arsenal would have netted me. So I can buy a diplomat for 520 g and get 110 influence, or gift a cheap zeppelin (510 g) for 51 influence. That's still a crazy bad deal, and of course there is the factor that diplomats at this point are super fast and can bypass borders, and can stack with other units so they don't get into traffic jams. This policy is not great for DV play, the +15% hammer isn't helping you out that much (you want to buy units not build them!)

New Deal (T2): Compared to per city bonuses in other trees, this one still struggles a bit.

Their Finest Hour (T2): Its alright but nothing sexy enough compared to other trees.

Transnationalism (T2): So this one falls in the middle between Order and Autocracy in terms of corp manipulation. Order gives you speed, the ability to have all of your franchises built instantly, ready to go, and the ability to ignore the franchise game entirely with sanctions and such. Autocracy gives power, you can in theory have more franchises than any other tree, and therefore the strongest corps, which is counterbalanced by a lot of work needed to get to those high numbers. Freedom provides quicker franchises through the 15% vs 5, which also bypasses the TR game....somewhat. So conceptually its fine but it doesn't hit either side enough, its not quick enough, or powerful enough, to compete. So some tweaks here can help.

Universal Suffrage (T2): I think the issue here is the bonus comes too late. Having a golden age when I'm just getting into ideologies can be useful, but by Tier 2 (especially on the specialist focused tree) I've got GAs coming out of my ears. I think if this one just came sooner it would have a niche, not for every game, but something that comes in handy from time to time.

The....Maybe?

Covert Action (T1): So the thing to remember is that rigging elections is almost 100% already (I can honestly remember 1 time in my last 20 games I saw an election rig fail, I actually until that point thought it was 100%, so this is really about the coups.) That said, coups take a lot of spy management and they fail a lot, but if you consider the "free" cost of the spy, and you just coup as much as possible with your cheap Tier 1 spies....this bonus might actually be good, I honestly don't know.


My Changes
And now the ever so controversial changes. My goal is to focus on the bad tenants while at the same time ensuring Freedom has enough science and military benefits to be competitive.
  • Avante Garde (T1): Boredom needs reduced by 20%. All specialists generate +1 :c5greatperson:
So this is a slight tweak, but we we are doing is increasing the core specialist boost, which then is further magnified by all of the GP boosts. So this now better rewards players who are milking all of those other bonuses, as opposed to just getting a weak bonus to add on top.
  • Civil Society (T1): Removed
Rationalism already gives us this kind of bonus. I think urbanization is the more interesting of the two, and so we will focus on making that policy good.
  • Urbanization (T1): Farms, Camps, Plantations, Villages, and Unique Improvements gain +4 food and +2 gold.
The food bonus was already pretty solid, we just need another good yield to round us off here. Also its time to give villages some love, I rarely want to work them at this point in the game.
  • Universal Suffrage (T2 -> T1)
The bonus is fine if it comes a little earlier, and that fills the hole left by the civil society removal. Now giving us a T2 tenant to play with.
  • Arsenal of Democracy (T2): When you gift a unit to a CS, you gain gold equal to half of its purchase cost. When you liberate a CS, the CS is healed to full and immediately gains all defensive buildings. You gain triple the normal influence bonus, and all of your units gain +15 XP.
I liked PADs liberation concepts so I took some pages from it here. So now we are focusing the arsenal on CS protection. We now make it easier to do that through cheaper unit gifting, and greater rewards to liberate the CS taken by autocratic players who love to snipe everything late game.
  • New Deal (T2): Landmarks and GPTI gain +7 to the appropriate yield, and +4 tourism.
New Deal isn't terrible it just needs a little bit, and this gives us a T2 tourism booster to keep us competitive.
  • Their Finest Hour (T2): +33% City Strength to all cities and allied CS. Can use B17 bombers (unit upgraded to be cooler).
Freedom players tend to have real trouble maintaining CS in the late game against the superior militaries of order and autocracy, so this helps the "turtle strategy" of freedom players who wants to duck in their cities for protection. I don't know what to do with the B17 at the moment so I'll leave that open for others. Combine this with the new Arsenal of Democracy for the ultimate in CS protection.
  • Transnationalism (T2): Immediately gain franchises in 3 random cities once your Corporation is obtained. (the rest the same) 15% random chance, +25% franchise max, +2 culture from corp offices
Just a bump here to give it a little bit of Order's "immediate" franchise advantage. This gives it a solid start, and then it can grow as before.
  • Alliance for Progress (New T2): Gain 10 influence with all known CS when you expend a GP. 10% of global GPT :c5gold: is converted into :c5science:
Simple but oh so powerful, this lets us use the raw economic engine of freedom for science benefits, plugging the science gap that freedom was missing. We keep the influence bonus mostly as a ribbon



I will put these ideas in the OP without the explanation for a nice clean list.
 
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So with the changes I proposed here is how I would generately fill out the first rung of the tree for various victory conditions. Open policies mean I have a number of choices just depends on circumstances.

DV: Open T1 + Open T1 + Alliance for Progress T2 + Open T1 + Arsenal of Democracy or Finest Hour T2 + Treaty Alliance T3

CV: Creative Expression T1 + Avante Guarde T1 + New Deal or Transnationalism T2 + Open T1 + Open T2 + Media Culture T3

SV: Universal Healthcare T1 + Avante Guarde or Urbanization T1 + Alliance for Progress T2 + Open T1 + New Deal T2 + Space Procurements T3


I feel like Draft Registration, Economic Union, and Universal Suffrage are good Open T1 candidates, where Transnationalism and Capitalism are good Open T2. Just depends on how you want to round out your Civ.
 
Thought about my alliance for progress some more. I actually think its still not that strong, and I still would like the "CV tree" to have some benefits for tourism. So how about.

  • Alliance for Progress (New T2): Gain 10 influence with all known CS when you expend a GP. 10% of :c5gold: and Tourism :tourism: in a city is converted to :c5science:
 
I disagree on these three"

Space Procurements (T3): For SV its a decent policy, as long as the rest of the tree gives you the science engine to get to the SV....the ability to buy parts can shave us a LOT of turns in the late game science race.
This policy alone is a lot more than decent, investing in spaceship parts is much stronger than order's great engineering thing. Freedom just needs a touch of science somewhere (not here, this policy is good enough).

New Deal (T2): Compared to per city bonuses in other trees, this one still struggles a bit.
It's niche but very strong in those niche situations. Something like tradition+divine inheritance loves it.

Universal Suffrage (T2): I think the issue here is the bonus comes too late. Having a golden age when I'm just getting into ideologies can be useful, but by Tier 2 (especially on the specialist focused tree) I've got GAs coming out of my ears. I think if this one just came sooner it would have a niche, not for every game, but something that comes in handy from time to time.
I think this used to be tier 1, which is the change I would make. At T2 it's still pretty good though, if you didn't get any golden age stuff earlier you probably need this.
 
I agree that B17s could stand to be stronger, and I agree that Urbanization and Civil Society should be combined into a single tenet.

I don’t like the other ideas though.

I also proposed a tenet called self-determination that rewards you for Liberating cities. I still like that idea over your proposed Alliance for Progress.
 
I agree that B17s could stand to be stronger, and I agree that Urbanization and Civil Society should be combined into a single tenet.

I don’t like the other ideas though.

I also proposed a tenet called self-determination that rewards you for Liberating cities. I still like that idea over your proposed Alliance for Progress.

Is it that you don't think other tenants need adjustment, or that they do but dislike the specific changes I've proposed?


For discussion lets look at our two versions of "liberation" mechanics side by side. This is the last version I found in the Ideology thread, if there's a different one you want to rediscuss let me know.

Version 1: Unit gifts to a CS give you gold equal to half the unit's purchase cost. When you liberate a CS, the CS is healed to full and immediately gains all defensive buildings. You gain triple the normal influence bonus, and all of your units gain +15 XP.

Version 2: Liberated cities gain a Free Military Base, and X% of liberated cities' :c5science: and :c5gold: are added to your own.


So it seems we are on the same page that the liberated city should receive some defensive buildings. Mine gives all of them, the later only military base. The reason I'm giving them so much is because without an army, the CS is still quite vulnerable even with a few defensive buildings. It takes a lot of added CS strength to ensure they can stand up on their own. But ultimately that's a detail issue, how many defensive buildings we give them is a valid debate.

In terms of bonuses, I have no issue with gold, that seems a nice bonus and suitable for Freedom's economic theme. My issue with science is that people seem to agree Freedom could use another science source, but liberated cities are too variable game to game to be a reliable source for the tree. So I don't think that is the answer to Freedom's science need. I choose a source based on Tourism and Gold to try and fit Freedom's science through raw economy....but I'm open to other thoughts there as well, as long as its something that is fairly reliable.

Personally whether its XP or yield bonuses for liberated cities, I am good with either. I went with XP just because Freedom doesn't get any of it compared to Order and Autocracy, so I thought this was a nice way to insert it thematically. But if people would rather have raw yields or some other bonus, that's fine by me.

I do think its important that you get more influence than normal for liberating a city. On higher difficulties, the base influence it gives you is nothing. My last Immortal game Morocco had 7 Great Diplomats just lying around! While its not always that extreme, the AI has no trouble delivering a thousand or more influence in short order to flip a CS, so I think some pad to let you try to hold on to the liberated CS as your ally is worthwhile.
 
  • Avante Garde (T1): Boredom needs reduced by 20%. All specialists generate +1 :c5greatperson:
+1:c5greatperson: is 33% more GPPs than specialists get now, but before % modifiers. It's interesting, I like that it deemphasizes GPPs from wonders and emphasizes specialists even more.

I think it would be an improvement, I don't think it's so cool and unique that we should lobby the devs for new code just to approximate the existing bonus.
  • Civil Society (T1): Removed. Universal Suffrage moved from T2 to T1
  • Urbanization (T1): Farms, Camps, Plantations, Villages, and Unique Improvements gain +4 :c5food: and +2 :c5gold:.
Urbanization is the only of the 3 UI-boosting tenets that only gives bonuses to tiles. 5 year plan and MIC do a different thing in addition to boosting improvements. I agree that Urbanization is weak, and I agree that Civil Society is bad, but I disagree with your solution of just giving Urbanization bigger numbers, and scrapping Civil Society entirely. Furthermore, the issue with Urbanization is not the tile types it boosts, they are already some of the best tiles in the game, so adding villages is just wrong IMO. Combining them would bring Freedom's UI-boosting tenet into line with the other 2.

Urbanization:
Specialists consume 2 :c5food:Food less than Normal (Minimum 1 :c5food:). Farms, Plantations, Camps, and all Unique Improvements produce +4:c5food: Food.
  • Arsenal of Democracy (T2): Unit gifts to a CS give you gold equal to half the unit's purchase cost. When you liberate a CS, the CS is healed to full and immediately gains all defensive buildings. You gain triple the normal influence bonus, and all of your units gain +15 XP.
Arsenal of Democracy is fine as is. You just split its bonuses and rearranged it while adding some bonuses-of-a-kind similar to what we already have, but that would demand new code. I don't think your solutions that involve breaking up and re-imagining any aspect of AoD offer much beyond what Freedom already does, so why change it and create more work?
  • New Deal (T2): Landmarks and GPTI gain +7 to the appropriate yield, and +4 tourism.
I agree with @CrazyG that a boost to New Deal is unnecessary. It's a very strong tenet in certain playstyles already, but it's not a must-have every time, and that's fine.

Having said that, some Tourism might not go amiss, but I would lower it to 3:tourism:, just so it feels less like you are just copying the Reformation belief. New Deal-era public works have often generated tourism interest (eg. the Hoover Dam). If Freedom needs a little CV nudge, this is an okay place to put it that doesn't cause waves in the rest of the tree for other victory types.
  • Their Finest Hour (T2): +33% City Strength to all cities and allied CS. Can use B17 bombers (still needs a unit upgrade just not sure what yet)
I agree with you that the B17 needs something more. Improving the :c5rangedstrength:RCS of allied cities is new code and it is such a microscopic, fringe benefit, I can't imagine why this change would be worth it.
  • Transnationalism (T2): Immediately gain franchises in 3 random cities once your Corporation is obtained. (the rest the same) 15% random chance, +25% franchise max, +2 culture from corp offices.
I think this tenet is fine as is. It helps you grow your franchises faster than the other trees, but doesn't give any up-front bonuses like the other ones do. It's fine, no change necessary IMO.
If you were to change something about it, however, I would advocate for the +1 Franchise on Empire for each Town be put here. That excites me much more than just zapping a franchise into 3 arbitrary locations on the map.
  • Alliance for Progress (Brand New T2): Gain 10 influence with all known CS when you expend a GP. 10% of :c5gold: and Tourism :tourism: in a city is converted into :c5science:
See my criticism of the Arsenal of Democracy. I think that tenet is fine as is, and I see no reason to split it like this.

There's not much else to say except that I think your choice of name is funny, because the Alliance for Progress was a failure and a sham.
I do think its important that you get more influence than normal for liberating a city. On higher difficulties, the base influence it gives you is nothing. My last Immortal game Morocco had 7 Great Diplomats just lying around! While its not always that extreme, the AI has no trouble delivering a thousand or more influence in short order to flip a CS, so I think some pad to let you try to hold on to the liberated CS as your ally is worthwhile.

So it seems we are on the same page that the liberated city should receive some defensive buildings. Mine gives all of them, the later only military base. The reason I'm giving them so much is because without an army, the CS is still quite vulnerable even with a few defensive buildings. It takes a lot of added CS strength to ensure they can stand up on their own. But ultimately that's a detail issue, how many defensive buildings we give them is a valid debate.

In terms of bonuses, I have no issue with gold, that seems a nice bonus and suitable for Freedom's economic theme. My issue with science is that people seem to agree Freedom could use another science source, but liberated cities are too variable game to game to be a reliable source for the tree. So I don't think that is the answer to Freedom's science need. I choose a source based on Tourism and Gold to try and fit Freedom's science through raw economy....but I'm open to other thoughts there as well, as long as its something that is fairly reliable.

Personally whether its XP or yield bonuses for liberated cities, I am good with either. I went with XP just because Freedom doesn't get any of it compared to Order and Autocracy, so I thought this was a nice way to insert it thematically. But if people would rather have raw yields or some other bonus, that's fine by me.
I think we are in agreement in concept, but not in implementation.
  • I agree that the liberation bonus needs to have some defensive bonus and that there needs to be some hefty bonus towards the liberator civ.
    • Personally, I think a free Arsenal in the liberated city is a better idea than a Military Base. It is the same :c5strength:CS bonus and only 25 less HP, but Arsenals give indirect fire and +1 range, while Military bases give other bonuses that don't actually directly help the city defend itself afterwards. What is a newly liberated city supposed to do with +25%:c5production: to planes?
  • I disagree with your idea to give direct :c5influence:Influence with that city when Liberated, simply because you can liberate cities that aren't CS. I think any bonus you give needs to trigger on ALL liberated cities.
    • I thought your idea of it working as a liberation quest issued from all CS in the game the best of all the ideas offered:
Another more radical idea. What if the ideology made it where every CS instantly offered a liberation mission. Its a little outside the norm, but the idea of integrating quests with other aspects of the mod is something we haven't explored tooo much.
This gets around the problem of needing the Liberated city to be a CS, by making it every Other city-state that gives the bonus. It also combines with the ideology's existing global :c5influence:Influence bonuses on all CS, like Arsenal of Democracy's :c5influence:Influence on GPs​
  • I think :c5science:science is a fine yield to give for liberating cities. I agree that liberations is too variable a place to depend on science, but I disagree with yours and other people's assessments that Freedom necessarily needs more science overall to be competitive with an SV. It has the single strongest T3 tenet for SV, and it has lots of bonuses that can contribute to your :c5science:science economy indirectly, rather than through pure numbers.
So how about this?
Self-Determination (T1)
Liberating cities gives 15 XP to all units, an instant boost of :c5science: Science, and 50 :c5influence: Influence with all City-States. Liberated Cities immediately construct an Arsenal.

so if that is a Liberated city is a CS, it will give 50 :c5influence: Influence more than the base, which is pretty modest, but the global influence and XP will be the big draws.
 
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+1:c5greatperson: is 33% more GPPs than specialists get now, but before % modifiers. It's interesting, I like that it deemphasizes GPPs from wonders and emphasizes specialists even more.

I think it would be an improvement, I don't think it's so cool and unique that we should lobby the devs for new code just to approximate the existing bonus.

A fair point, and while Avante Guarde is on my bad list its not that bad, so new code is probably not warranted. If a real buff was needed, probably something as simple as buffing the bonus to 40% or 45% instead instead of new mechanics. But I also agree other Freedom tenants are in more need of buffing.

Urbanization:
Specialists consume 2 :c5food:Food less than Normal (Minimum 1 :c5food:). Farms, Plantations, Camps, and all Unique Improvements produce +4:c5food: Food.

I could get behind Urbanization as the "ultimate" food producing tenant, its one I probably wouldn't use most games but when you want it, it would then give good bang for the buck. I do think its funny that "urbanization" focuses on all the rural buildings, but that doesn't really bother me.

Arsenal of Democracy is fine as is. You just split its bonuses and rearranged it while adding some bonuses-of-a-kind similar to what we already have, but that would demand new code. I don't think your solutions that involve breaking up and re-imagining any aspect of AoD offer much beyond what Freedom already does, so why change it and create more work?

We all have those things in civ that I "just don't understand why people like it", and I guess this one is mine. Its not the first time I've gotten counter feedback from others that AoD is fine as is. I think this tenant is hot garbage, but I guess this one is just a blind spot for me.

I agree with @CrazyG that a boost to New Deal is unnecessary... Having said that, some Tourism might not go amiss, but I would lower it to 3:tourism:

A fair compromise

Improving the :c5rangedstrength:RCS of allied cities is new code and it is such a microscopic, fringe benefit, I can't imagine why this change would be worth it.

Not just the RCS but the CS is well, giving the city a LOT more longevity against bulk attacks. It does make a big difference, especially for City States where the city defense is a large bulk of its total ability to resist defenders. I still think this one is worth considering, and should be a very easy change, as we already have civ specific code that adjusts City State strength.

I think this tenet is fine as is. It helps you grow your franchises faster than the other trees, but doesn't give any up-front bonuses like the other ones do. It's fine, no change necessary IMO.
If you were to change something about it, however, I would advocate for the +1 Franchise on Empire for each Town be put here. That excites me much more than just zapping a franchise into 3 arbitrary locations on the map.

I would also agree that Transnationalism is not the lowest of the low. I would argue though that Order's Nationalism is generally a lot better, I can have my entire full corporation online within 5 turns, Freedom doesn't even come close to that, and with turns become more scarce at this point in the game, waiting 45+ turns to get all of your franchises up (assuming two waves of TRs required, and generally the fastest TR I see at that point are 22-23 turns) compared to like 5 is a big deal.

So if we did go with the +1 Franchise Idea (which I am open to as I really liked that idea, and it does seem fitting here), it would be slightly weaker than the above idea simply because I could activate the TR bonus of the franchise immediately (and for some corps that bonus is much stronger than the franchise scaler....especially for Tall). But that said, +1 franchise for town has a nice synergy with Towns that I think makes good flavor sense for Freedom, and the idea was pretty popular when it came up in the Great Merchant thread.

So we could go with this model. Note that in this model, the franchise from towns do count towards your limit (unlike autocracy). If we want to go with completely free, we may want to reconsider the global max increase as well.

Transnationalism: Gain 1 Franchise for every Town. Each turn, increase the chance that a corporation will appear in a foreign city to 15% (normally 5%). Global Franchise maximum increases by 25%. +2 :c5culture: from corporation offices.

Self-Determination (T1)
Liberating cities gives 15 XP to all units, an instant boost of :c5science: Science, and 50 :c5influence: Influence with all City-States. Liberated Cities immediately construct an Arsenal.

so if that is a Liberated city is a CS, it will give 50 :c5influence: Influence more than the base, which is pretty modest, but the global influence and XP will be the big draws.

You made a good point that liberated cities are not just CS, I had not considered that. So I like the structure and types of bonuses you propose here, lets talk details for the moment.

  • Arsenal: You and I are in agreement that the liberated city should have an Arsenal. The question is, is that enough? My viewpoint is that we want a liberated city to be able to stand on its own, aka "determine its own destiny". So late game, a liberated city may have to deal with a hostile enemy force, it has no army of its own, and our units have just gotten ejected, oh and it only has 2 range with an arsenal (no walls yet), so it can't fight back against enemy artillery. The city is also wounded lets not forget. I just don't feel an Arsenal by itself is enough juice to hold out. We also have to consider the abuse potential of a liberated city getting taken and liberated over and over again. With the "full defense" model, since it takes effort to bring the city back down again, then that reduces the abuse potential. Or I guess we just have to put in a clause that a city can only be liberated by you for bonuses a single time.
  • Influence: 50 influence is a nice little boost, enough to often get friends with unfriended allies, or at least remove anger bonuses late game. I'd be willing to try this.
  • XP: Agreed
  • Science: As an off the cuff, I feel like a good minimum would be 40 :c5science:, era scaling + pop scaling (aka Imperium's numbers).
 
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I quite dislike that the freedom wonder requires 2 declarations of friendships to get a vote, where Order and Autocracy require only 1 defensive pact/vassal/captured capital. If DV Freedom is already strong enough, I'd rather have its T3 tenet nerfed and this buffed.

I will also agree on this one, just because DoFs are HARD to get in the late game if you are in any position to win the game. I am lucky to keep the AI from declaring on me, let alone friendships.
 
You and I are in agreement that the liberated city should have an Arsenal. The question is, is that enough?
An Arsenal is 175 HP and 20:c5strength:CS, indirect fire, and +1:c5rangedstrength: range. That is more than a Wall (6:c5strength:) and a Castle (8:c5strength:) combined. I think that probably would be enough to let it stand on its own to a degree. If some city health bonus puts you at ease, I would advocate for a flat amount like 500HP healed instantly and a free Arsenal, rather than healing the city to full.

If you liberated a major civ city that you don't have open borders with your army will be expelled and no units will spawn around the city to help defend it. If the civ you captured it from immediately declares war on that liberated civ then there is no reasonable amount of intervention you could do to save it. I think you are more worried about newly-Liberated City-States immediately allying you and thus declaring war on their former owner. In that situation they will have your army still in their borders, plus 3 units of their own, an Arsenal, and the new CS defense buffs that just came in this version, so that is a wait-and-see for me.
We also have to consider the abuse potential of a liberated city getting taken and liberated over and over again [...] I guess we just have to put in a clause that a city can only be liberated by you for bonuses a single time.
I think that goes without saying. Most conquest bonuses already work based on unique capture only.

I don't think healing to full closes that loop anyways. The 1 real potential abuse would be that you could liberate a city, then leave it to be recaptured, then simply capture it back and keep it. In that case, however, any bonus to liberated city defense would already be wiped out by the other conqueror.
 
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An Arsenal is 175 HP and 20:c5strength:CS, indirect fire, and +1:c5rangedstrength: range. That is more than a Wall (6:c5strength:) and a Castle (8:c5strength:) combined. I think that probably would be enough to let it stand on its own to a degree
The strength of a single building is irrelevant, the question is...what does a city need to defend itself?

I’m my experience, a city on the frontline needs all 3 buildings (walls, castle, and Arsenal) to even be somewhat effective at holding against modern era militaries, and that’s with an actual army with them. On their own with only a few units, even adding in a military base they are still going to struggle.

An arsenal without additional support might as well be harsh language.

why not let a freed city be actually competent at standing up on their own, as opposed to simply dieing again when someone comes to conquer it...which they will.
 
Maybe both, an Arsenal and a Military Base? thats a combined 40:c5strength: and 375 HP

Before we start negotiating, I don’t yet understand your position

You seem to maintain the argument that letting a liberated city have protections equal to a normal city is a bad thing. But is that the case? What about that is overpowered?
 
You seem to maintain the argument that letting a liberated city have protections equal to a normal city is a bad thing.
If the civ you captured it from immediately declares war on that liberated civ then there is no reasonable amount of intervention you could do to save it.
Protections equal to a normal city would just be giving them nothing.

My position is I don't think it much matters what defense help you give a free city and I don't much care besides. The only crucial thing is making sure the liberator bonuses can't be triggered multiple times.

If the conqueror civ that lost the city's army is not already wiped out it will reconquer it unless you, the liberator, defend it. It was conquered before, it would have relatively low population and infrastructure, it will have few or no units of its own. So I don't think it matters what bonuses you give it to defend itself; barring some absurd bonuses that could situationally make it stronger than a city that was never captured, nothing you give a liberated city will be enough.
 
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So I don't think it matters what bonuses you give it to defend itself; barring some absurd bonuses that could situationally make it stronger than a city that was never captured, nothing you give a liberated city will be enough.

so sounds like we both agree that city defense alone isn’t enough to hold out. So in that, I’d argue why not give them everything that at least a normal city has, to at least require some commitment to take it, as opposed to a few drill tanks knocking it down
 
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