[Vote] (4-14) Proposal: Normalize the number of spies between Covert Action and Double Agents

[Legen]

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Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" if you'd be okay if this proposal was implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if this proposal wasn't implemented.

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All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.

VP Congress: Session 4, Proposal 14

Spoiler Related tenets :

Covert Action: Chance of rigged elections and coups in City-States increased. Receive one Spy (plus one Spy for every 10 City-States, if at least 20 city-states ever existed). Level 1 Freedom tenet.

Double Agents: Receive 3 Spies (plus one Spy for every 10 City-States, if at least 20 city-states ever existed). Spies twice as likely to capture enemy spies in owned Cities. Level 1 Order tenet.

Proposal:

• Both Covert Action and Double Agents grant 2 spies (instead of 1 and 3, respectively) as their baseline.
  • Additional spies based on the number of city-states remains unchanged.

Rationale:

Both tenets are of the same level within their respective ideologies, but Double Agents provide two extra spies over Covert Action. This also makes the former an overall stronger tenet for diplomacy due to the ability to rig elections in more city-states, despite Order being the ideology that is supposed to not support a Diplomatic Victory.

I don't find the difference between their other effects to justify Double Agents giving triple the number of spies of another tenet of the same level, especially if those extra spies are also supporting the victory type that Order is supposed to be weak at. Normalizing both at two baseline spies should address it without radically buffing or nerfing either ideology (they also have to be weighted in relation to Autocracy, not only to each other, hence the aim for a modest change in either direction).

 

[Enginseer]

This feels very weird when you're swapping ideologies from Order to Freedom as the number of spies doesn't suddenly go down when you switch. It should be more consistent!

 

[Stalker0]

The thing is, the freedom benefit of double coups is WAAAAAAYYYY better than the double chance to kill spies imo. So the fact that the order one gets more spies balances the books

 

[Legen]

freedom benefit of double coups

The coups aren't doubled anymore. I don't know what the exact chance increase is, but it is weaker now. I can tell from experience trying to use it.

The tenet's tooltip only says "Chance of rigged elections and coups in City-States increased", there's no "doubled" part. I actually need to check the new chance and add to the tooltip, as there was a fast tracked proposal before asking for unambiguous tooltips, including Covert Action.

 

[axatin]

Coup chances are increased by calculating: 1 - (1 - B)^2, B the base coup chance. I don't think there's a way to describe this in a tooltip.

For the discussion how good covert action is now: this is how covert action changes coup chances (the "before" chances depend on influence difference to the cs ally, spy level and the number of rigged elections)

Before:	10%	20%	30%	40%	50%	60%	70%	80%	90%
After:	19%	36%	51%	64%	75%	84%	91%	96%	99%

Maybe interesting to know that the policy has the strongest effect for coup chances around 50%.

 

[Stalker0]

Coup chances are increased by calculating: 1 - (1 - B)^2, B the base coup chance. I don't think there's a way to describe this in a tooltip.

For the discussion how good covert action is now: this is how covert action changes coup chances (the "before" chances depend on influence difference to the cs ally, spy level and the number of rigged elections)

Before:	10%	20%	30%	40%	50%	60%	70%	80%	90%
After:	19%	36%	51%	64%	75%	84%	91%	96%	99%

Maybe interesting to know that the policy has the strongest effect for coup chances around 50%.

So if we are looking at the realm of values in which you would realistically try a coup, its roughly ~22%

 

[azum4roll]

It's as if you perform the coup twice, and it succeeds if any of them does.

 

[axatin]

The tooltip could say "coup chance increased by up to 25%".

 

[azum4roll]

The tooltip could say "coup chance increased by up to 25%".

Or "coup fail chance squared"

 

[Legen]

Or "coup fail chance squared"

Most succinct one.

By the way, does the chance of rigging elections with Covert Action use the same formula?

 

[azum4roll]

Technically not always squared. Covert Action gives 1 extra roll for coups (using base rate that depends on influence difference, spy level and number of rigs), while cultural influence also gives up to 0.6 extra roll.

 

[axatin]

Or "coup fail chance squared"

That would be accurate, but I don't think it would make it clearer for everyone. It can easily be misinterpreted as an increased fail chance (by someone who doesn't know that taking the square of a number smaller than 1 decreases it). And chances are everywhere else written as percentages, not as decimals

 

[axatin]

Can't we find a succinct way of explaining this?

It's as if you perform the coup twice, and it succeeds if any of them does.

"If a spy attempts a coup, he gets one free try and dies only if both attempts fail". something like this?

 

[Anarcomu]

"Spy roll dice an additional time during coups"

 

[axatin]

By the way, does the chance of rigging elections with Covert Action use the same formula?

IIRC rigging chances are increased as if the spy were one level higher

 

[axatin]

It's as if you perform the coup twice, and it succeeds if any of them does.

btw I must admit it took me until now to understand the idea behind your formula. Now I appreciate it, it's nice

 

[Legen]

"Spy roll dice an additional time during coups"

btw I must admit it took me until now to understand the idea behind your formula. Now I appreciate it, it's nice

That spy plays Dungeons and Dragons, I see. It's basically their Advantage mechanic.

I suppose I could go with "as if the coup were attempted twice".

 

[Anarcomu]

That spy plays Dungeons and Dragons, I see. It's basically their Advantage mechanic.

I might -might- have been influenced somehow in the way I described the mechanic...

 

[Stalker0]

“When performing a coup, the attempt is made twice. If either succeeds, the coup is successful”

 

[Legen]

I'll sponsor this.