[Vote] (4-19) Babylon Tweaks (& Atlatlist Promotion) Proposals

[Recursive]

Voting Instructions
Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" for every proposal you'd be okay with if it were implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if these proposals weren't implemented. You can vote for any number of options.

All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.

VP Congress: Session 4, Proposal 19
Discussion Thread: (4-19) Proposal: Tweaks to Walls of Babylon
Proposer: @Legen
Sponsor: @Legen

Proposal Details

Spoiler Babylon's UA :

Receive a Free Great Scientist when you discover Writing, and Great Scientists are earned 50% faster than normal. Investing Gold in Buildings reduces their Production cost by and additional 15%.

Spoiler Babylon's UB, with its unique traits underlined :

Cost: 110
Maintenance: -1
Defense: +8 +150 HP (from +6 +125 HP)
Science: 1
1 scientist slot

Military Units supplied by population in this city increased by 10%.
Increases Ranged Strike Range by 1.
Scientists in this city generate +2 Gold.

Proposal:

• Walls of Babylon's scientist slot replaced with the following benefits:
  • Base science increased from 1 to 4
  • Base +3 Great Scientist Points
• Walls of Babylon's no longer adds gold to scientists. Instead, it gains the following benefits:
  • "Great Scientists provide 10% more Science when used to discover new Technology"
  • "No maintenance cost"

Spoiler Walls of Babylon, with the proposed changes in italics :

Cost: 110
No maintenance cost
Defense: +8 +150 HP (from +6 +125 HP)
Science: 4
+3 Great Scientist Points

Military Units supplied by population in this city increased by 10%.
Increases Ranged Strike Range by 1.
Great Scientists provide 10% more Science when used to discover new Technology

Rationale:

From pineappledan's suggestion, this proposal tries to alleviate Babylon's massive dependence on food and free it to work on the UA's improved investments, as well as strengthen the civ's focus on Great Scientists.

Babylon has lost some flexibility since around 2018, after a series of general nerfs to specialists made it harder to work them, especially in the earlier eras. The food consumption was increased by 1, and the urbanization unhappiness from working one increased from 0.25 to 1. It didn't help that Crime (mitigated by Defense, which the UB has an extra) was reworked to Distress. After those changes, players reported that Tradition and Authority have stopped working satisfactorily with Babylon, as it became unfeasible to work the UB's extra scientist with them. Progress can still work well with the UB, but even for it is now hard to work both the scientists from the library and the UB when you reach Writing, a normally high point for this civ, an issue that wasn't common before. The AI also seems to be struggling a lot with Babylon at the moment, with a low winrate, the second worst average score by turn 300, and the worst by turn 400.

The idea of replacing the scientist slot was suggested back then, and recently once again, to address it without breaking the civ's early Great Scientist generation. The main merit is that the civ can break away from its current massive food dependency. None of Babylon's uniques support food generation, yet food acts as the bottleneck on how much science the civ can generate in practice; you're often struggling to benefit from the extra scientist slot on your cities, and sometimes to even populate the extra academies. This proposal frees Babylon from this bottleneck, so that its choices don't have to revolve so heavily on food; this frees Babylon to focus more on gold/investments instead, its UA's secondary aspect.

The replacement of the "+2 gold on scientists" for a "+10% science on GScientist use" is there to emphasize the most distinctive part of Babylon's game plan, relative to other scientific civs. Babylon's relevance in the late game scientific race revolves mainly on how strong its GS bulbing is at this point, powered by the extra academies over other civs. Pineappledan's concept is that the new ability in the UB can further build up on it and possibly let Babylon challenge the conventional wisdom on the timing for bulbing your great scientist. It is also an extra push towards wide, offsetting the extra academies' incentive to stay tall/thick instead. The removal of the gold on scientists should ensure the shift from seeking food to seeking gold happens as intended, and reduce the overlap with Korea's extra yields on specialists.

The maintenance cost removal is meant to preserve some of Babylon's ability to invest during the early game, after the loss of gold on scientists. It is not expected to have a major impact in the midgame, it is only to maintain the viability of the UA's investment bonus early on.


VP Congress: Session 4, Proposal 19a
Discussion Thread: (4-19a) Proposal: Atlatlist and Bowman promotion swap
Proposer: @Legen
Sponsor: @Legen

Proposal Details

Spoiler Atlatlist stats, Mayan UU :

Cost: 100 (from 110 )
Unlocked at Mathematics (instead of Currency)
Combat: 13 (from 12 )
Ranged Combat: 14
Range: 2
Movement: 2

Atlatl Strike (+33% RCS when attacking Wounded Units; kept on upgrade)
May Not Melee Attack
Naval Target Penalty (-20% CS when attacking Naval Units)

Spoiler Bowman stats, Babylonian UU :

Cost: 70
Unlocked at Calendar
Combat: 8 (from 6 )
Ranged Combat: 10 (from 9 )
Range: 2
Movement: 2

Indirect Fire (-10% RCS when attacking. Ranged attacks may be performed over obstacles, as long as other friendly Units can see the target)
Naval Target Penalty (-20% CS when attacking Naval Units)

Proposal:

• Atlatlist gains Indirect Fire, replacing Atlatl Strike.
• Bowman gains Atlatl Strike, replacing Indirect Fire.
  • Atlatl Strike renamed to Marksmanship.

Rationale:

An idea came that Babylon and Maya would likely benefit more from their UUs if Indirect Fire and Atlatl Strike were swapped.

For Maya, it makes sense to pair their jungle bias and flavor with a promotion that is reliant on such kind of terrain to shine. Indirect Fire is a valuable promotion when fighting in terrain that blocks line of sight, notably dense forests and jungles. Maya has strong incentives to settle in the middle of such terrain due to their UI and tends to preserve its trees, as the UI works well with forest/jungle related buildings. As such, Maya's wars usually happen where Indirect Fire is most valuable at; their terrain bias could be turned into a reliable military advantage with it.

In contrast, Atlatl Strike tends to shine when forests and jungles are not around. The +25% CS those tiles give to the defender (for reference, hills grant +10% CS) greatly mitigates that +33% RCS, negating the sting Atlatl Strike would otherwise have. Add that these tiles also block line of sight, limiting your ability to engage and focus fire with archers, and you have a preference for an open field, preferably chopping nearby trees that could act as cover for an enemy. All of which run counter to Maya's preference for heavy forested terrain.

For Babylon, it makes sense to pair the defensive flavor set by their UB with a threatening garrison unit, consolidating Babylon's theme of fortified cities. Atlatl Strike could allow for a strong follow-up to the city's attacks and retaliations, so that an invader can't afford to maintain an assault or siege for long. And Atlatl Strike performs best in a wide open terrain, where you're in most need for a strong garrison. This isn't an uncommon scenario; when resources are abundant in an open field, Babylon is more willing than usual to settle there due to the extra safety from its UB. And clearing trees is common for this civ, either due to needing a place for another Academy, or to cultivate farms to feed scientist specialists (for even more academies), incidentally removing potential cover against Atlatl Strike.

In contrast, Babylon's lack of a preferred terrain and extra tendency to chop trees don't work well with Indirect Fire's reliance on the right terrain to shine. And the -10% RCS also makes the unit a less threatening garrison overall, working against Babylon's defensive theme.

 

[azum4roll]

The GS bulb boost on Walls of Babylon is an overkill.

 

[pineappledan]

Possibly.

When I suggested +10% bulb for GScientists, I was under the impression that academy’s still gave 20%. They have been reduced to10%. The intent was for each city to give 1/2 the power of an academy. However, if they only gave 5%, I doubt anyone would even notice the bonus.

I think we can try it at 10% to start.

 

[stii]

This is a huge buff right? Do people think Babylon is weak?

 

[Stalker0]

This is a huge buff right? Do people think Babylon is weak?

I do think this is pretty big buff, its basically a free science specialist in every city.

 

[pineappledan]

It’s functionally a scientist slot that you don’t have to work to replace the current one which requires a pop to work. It puts more flexibility early in exchange for less power later.

On the plus side, that’s worth whatever that 1 could be working instead.
On the downside, it doesn’t scale or get augmented by policies or wonders like a specialist does.
This also drops the 2 on all scientists, which continues to get more powerful as you gain more slots in the city.

The base science could be reduced to 3 though.

 

[azum4roll]

On the downside, it doesn’t scale or get augmented by policies or wonders like a specialist does.

It does get boosted by increased GPP rate, like his own UA.

 

[Anarcomu]

It’s functionally a scientist slot that you don’t have to work to replace the current one which requires a pop to work. It puts more flexibility early in exchange for less power later.

On the plus side, that’s worth whatever that 1 could be working instead.
On the downside, it doesn’t scale or get augmented by policies or wonders like a specialist does.
This also drops the 2 on all scientists, which continues to get more powerful as you gain more slots in the city.

The base science could be reduced to 3 though.

There is also a lot of small bonuses spread in the technology tree, which the new wall does not benefit from.

 

[Stalker0]

It’s functionally a scientist slot that you don’t have to work to replace the current one which requires a pop to work. It puts more flexibility early in exchange for less power later.

On the plus side, that’s worth whatever that 1 could be working instead.
On the downside, it doesn’t scale or get augmented by policies or wonders like a specialist does.
This also drops the 2 on all scientists, which continues to get more powerful as you gain more slots in the city.

The base science could be reduced to 3 though.

Utlimately its provides all the main advantages of a great scientist (some core science and especially the GPP), and it generates more science early because you'll be able to work it more consistently. Those GPP still get boosted by all the things GPPs are boosted by, so no loss there. Now you could argue the loss of the science later and the gold immediately might balance the books.....except....

You get a full +10% boost on GS usage for techs.

That blows away any loss in later yields pretty much by the first 1-2 GS bulbs, and then is pure gravy on top. (and if your not bulbing 8+ GS scientists in the game as babylon eventually your doing it wrong).

So yes its 100% a buff to babylon. Now maybe people want to buff babylon, in which case, I think this is a pretty cool and elegant way to do that, but make no mistake, this is pure buff.

 

[pineappledan]

Yes, the bulb increase is there to compensate how the specialist change removes all the sustain from the UB.

 

[azum4roll]

Except with the freed up , Babylon can easily work a tile worth more than 2 .

 

[pineappledan]

...???

Are we not all on the same page when I say "specialist boost"?

It does get boosted by increased GPP rate, like his own UA.

And sources get boosted by % science rate modifiers, like... other things.

Yeah it's a yield and there are boosts for yields. I said the WoB won't be affected by things that boost specialists.

Except with the freed up , Babylon can easily work a tile worth more than 2 .

and he'll have to find a tile for that to work that is worth 2 more for each additional scientist slot he works in a city. The WoB isn't the only scientist slot Babylon can get (eg, he currently gets a total of +4 working both a library and a WoB)
and he'll have to find a tile for that to work that is worth 1 additional for each tech boost he unlocks (eg. astronomy)

Specialist yields get stronger and more plentiful as the game progresses because of various tech/building/policy bonuses. removing the scientist slot and putting the yields directly onto the building means the yields are static and won't grow like they did before.

 

[Legen]

The current gold from scientists scale as you unlock more scientist slots. 4 when you can work libraries, 6 with universities, 10 with observatories, and so on. It's part of why people often consider the investment bonus the strongest part of Babylon's UA and treat the Great scientist part as a secondary effect. Which is something that has irked me for a long time, Babylon was supposed to be a scientific civ first, economic civ second. The proposed bulbing boost in place of the gold on scientists pushes the UA's strength back to the great scientist part.

 

[stii]

You need to run a huge number of specialists before this is worse, I'd def reduce the science unless you are trying to give a big buff. I think even if it just gave +2 science it would be a buff on the current form.

 

[Zuizgond]

From a pure realistic standpoint I don't see how you can throw javelins over a hill. Bowmen having indirect fire makes more sense in my opinion.