(4-21d) Proposal: Espionage - Changes to Counterspies

[axatin]

Problems: Counterspies are too weak and are rarely used. When a counterspy kills an enemy spy, their mission is completed anyway, which doesn't make much sense.

Proposal:

• When a counterspy kills an enemy spy, the mission does not come into effect (no gold/tourism/tech is stolen etc.)
• To make up for this, kill chance is slightly decreased with an additional modifier: -10% kill chance for every level the attacking spy is above the first level (the level of the attacking spy is currently not considered in the kill chance calculation)
• The level restrictions for counterspy missions are removed, giving more options to use also low-level spies defensively

Note also that Proposal (4-26) suggests changes to the mission duration calculation which would make it more worthwhile to care about city security, and one way to achieve this is the usage of counterspies.

Spoiler The four counterspy missions :

• +50% chance to Identify and/or Kill foreign Spies.
• +10% chance to Identify and/or Kill foreign Spies. City Ranged Attacks are 50% stronger while Spy is active in this City.
• +25% chance to Identify and/or Kill foreign Spies. +2 Happiness and -25% Unhappiness from Needs in the City.
• +15% chance to Identify and/or Kill foreign Spies. Merchants, Engineers, Scientists, Artists, Writers, and Musicians all produce +1 of their basic Yield.

 

[Stalker0]

I get the desire to make counterspies better, I really do. But the idea that my spy is not only killed (and so lost for a lot of turns) but I spent 30 turns and getting no value from it....that is way too much "feels bad man". I just cannot get behind that.

I am fully on board with level 1 spies having access to all counterspy missions, provides a nice way to use your low level spies and make them useful.

 

[Slyceth]

I get the desire to make counterspies better, I really do. But the idea that my spy is not only killed (and so lost for a lot of turns) but I spent 30 turns and getting no value from it....that is way too much "feels bad man". I just cannot get behind that.

I am fully on board with level 1 spies having access to all counterspy missions, provides a nice way to use your low level spies and make them useful.

True, even 5 turns of not using a spy while it could be couping is a waste. AI's are relentless coupers, and if I don't act within 10 turns all my city states are in the hands of others, other side of the planet so I can't send an emissary..

 

[usadefcon1]

Brainstorming here but instead of counterspies how about a relatively inexpensive city project that when complete has a large percentage chance of revealing enemy spies.

 

[azum4roll]

Kill chance is BAD, period. We should either have a way to guarantee killing a spy, or just remove spy deaths. With the small amount of spies we have, it feels way worse losing one than losing a unit in war because of randomness of damage.

However, if we remove spy deaths, there needs to be a way to reset spies or they'll stay at level 3 forever once they reach it. Maybe a strong mission that expends spy levels as an extra cost?

 

[Stalker0]

Kill chance is BAD, period. We should either have a way to guarantee killing a spy, or just remove spy deaths. With the small amount of spies we have, it feels way worse losing one than losing a unit in war because of randomness of damage.

However, if we remove spy deaths, there needs to be a way to reset spies or they'll stay at level 3 forever once they reach it. Maybe a strong mission that expends spy levels as an extra cost?

What you could do is have a spy death = "reset of spy level". Ie there is no loss of a spy for X turns, you immediately gain a new spy, its just a base level 1 spy.

 

[azum4roll]

What you could do is have a spy death = "reset of spy level". Ie there is no loss of a spy for X turns, you immediately gain a new spy, its just a base level 1 spy.

It's still bad. You lose the ability to perform the better missions for a lot of turns, and it happens randomly with no way to control it (kill chance is entirely controlled by defending side).

 

[Legen]

It's still bad. You lose the ability to perform the better missions for a lot of turns, and it happens randomly with no way to control it (kill chance is entirely controlled by defending side).

If you don't want your spy to die, don't send him to a dangerous mission. And I like killing foreign spies.

When a counterspy kills an enemy spy, their mission is completed anyway

Isn't that a bug?

 

[gabrielsfarias]

What about expelling the spy from the city without completing the mission if detected?

 

[azum4roll]

If you don't want your spy to die, don't send him to a dangerous mission

There's no safe spy mission when the kill chance for the safest one is 50% (the worst odds balancewise) with a counterspy present. Unless you just don't send your spies to a major civ.

 

[axatin]

It's a thin line with counterspies. If they're too strong, everyone will just resort to putting spies in city-states only. And the proposal I made to mission modifiers will already increase the value of counterspies if it passes. I'm unsure, maybe it's better to remove the changes to killing spies from this proposal for now...

kill chance is entirely controlled by defending side

Not entirely. The chance to kill a spy is always multiplied with (City Security * 2)/100. If the other proposal passes, city security will hopefully be less random and less volatile than it is now, so there is a way to control the kill chance for the attacking player: Sending the spy to cities with a low City Security. Those will usually be smaller cities (which will probably don't have a CS), so if it works out as intended there will effectively be a trade-off between safe mission with less yields and risky mission with more yields.



I fully understand the desire to get rid of RNG completely, but I think it would require larger changes to the system: Having a 100% kill chance under some circumstances is only possible if spies get re-recruited and level up much faster than now, so they're more expendable. A 0% kill chance would result in all spies being level 3 after some time.

The fundamental issue is that spy missions are all-or-nothing. It takes maybe 40 turns to complete a spy mission, and then you either fail or succeed. As long as it's like that, RNG is the only way to keep a balance.

Isn't that a bug?

No, the text when a spy is killed explicitly says "Your spy was killed after completing their mission", so that's how it's intended.

 

[azum4roll]

@amateurgamer88 suggested to do the following if the spy is caught:

• Before Police Station is built, the spy always manages to flee. I assume the mission counts as failed and doesn't do anything.
• After Police Station is built, trigger an event for the spy owner with the following choices:
  • Let the spy be executed
  • Pay a certain amount of gold to the city owner to free the spy

I think this is worth a try.

 

[der_weihnachtsmann]

I think that a mission that doesnt do anything is worse than getting your spy killed. It has the risk of spies being useless all together.

 

[azum4roll]

I think that a mission that doesnt do anything is worse than getting your spy killed. It has the risk of spies being useless all together.

So you think missions should always succeed? You can suicide bomb other civs with your spies to steal gold, and even tourism if you have one of those +1 level buildings, and there's no way to stop it.

 

[Stalker0]

So you think missions should always succeed? You can suicide bomb other civs with your spies to steal gold, and even tourism if you have one of those +1 level buildings, and there's no way to stop it.

yes, because spies are too few and take too long to do otherwise.

 

[azum4roll]

Then, to be fair, there's no point of using a counterspy. Even if it has a 100% kill chance, it just slows down your yield loss. You could've used that spy to steal back the gold you lost instead.

 

[alchx]

@amateurgamer88 suggested to do the following if the spy is caught:

• Before Police Station is built, the spy always manages to flee. I assume the mission counts as failed and doesn't do anything.
• After Police Station is built, trigger an event for the spy owner with the following choices:
  • Let the spy be executed
  • Pay a certain amount of gold to the city owner to free the spy

I think this is worth a try.

Yes, I like it. I even saw it in some game.

It is not clear how to measure the value of a spy in gold. It should cost more than combat units, as it is able to complete missions inaccessible to them, and there are few spies. A successful coup in CS can be more valuable than 5 emissaries sent there.

But, if the value is very high, then the midgame may simply not have enough of the entire treasury to redeem it. And we also can’t store 2-3k gold, at the risk of being robbed, until the siphon mission is redone.

Deals for 20-50 turns are not a good idea - they can be broken in case of war.

It would be possible to take as an estimated value the profitability of the empire in 10 turns (or less, depending on the level of the spy) - all income, excluding expenses. A spy is a very valuable resource.

That is, an empire that receives 100 gold, but spends 99 and has +1 in the balance, will be able to ransom the spy for 1000 gold.

Although here again there is a nuance with Autocracy - getting gold with the growth of borders. This is not a very predictable factor that can cause past returns to spike and greatly affect the Spy's current value. This factor already affects city-state quests when they offer 120 culture per Great General, although the average quest value at this time is around 55 culture. The reason for this discrepancy is that Autocracy gains culture through kills and clearing several barbarian camps causes a jump in culture yield even though the empire generates 3-5 culture per turn on its own.

 

[Stalker0]

Then, to be fair, there's no point of using a counterspy. Even if it has a 100% kill chance, it just slows down your yield loss. You could've used that spy to steal back the gold you lost instead.

This is why it’s better to balance counterspies with extra benefits like the happy increase or specialist boost, etc

In reality though I think your underselling how much a counterspy protects in your capital, because I’m often defending against multiple spies at once, and every killed spy is a big delay.

 

[axatin]

I sponsor this.

 

[Recursive]

Proposal sponsored by axatin.