[Vote] (4-29) Proposal: Nerf the Siheyuan's yields

[Anarcomu]

Don't forget that since it is a (arguably spamable) UI, it does benefit from any bonus from ideologies (4 from Freedom, 3 from Order, 3 from Autocracy)...

 

[Stalker0]

Wow, that's even worse then. Sooo - let's assume a standard grassland tile - yields from a Siheyuan in modern era: 2 3 3 4 4 (at most). Well, it's certainly not bad, but I just don't see how it is as powerful as you've described. By that time pastures, camps, mines, etc. get so many yields from techs, buildings, policies that they easily match with these numbers.

The only seriously strong thing I see here that has the potential to make China snowball early, is the culture that early on (I forgot which tech unlocks the Siheyuan, but I assume it's quite early). If that is removed, what's left? Science is really nice, but it has nowhere near the potential (especially with so many other science focused civs).

Anyways, that's just my 2cents. I seriously have to go give it a go, because I just honestly don't see the huge problem here (other than maybe the early +2 culture from 1 tile, that can be spammed relatively easily).

Yes but they don't gain anything from each other, right? They need to be placed next to a city or next to two other, that's it. There is no synergy buff, like farms, Ekis, etc. Am I missing something?

Its an interesting point.

I do think China needs a nerf 100%, but are we nerfing the right thing? I mean from my perspective communitas likes to have lots of hills so I don't get a lot of UI, only a handful, often 1 or less per city. So is that really the dominant element of China's kit?

The answer honestly....is probably no. I actually think the food bonus we added recently might have been the sleeper buff to China, as it just lets them grow and grow and reduces unhappiness. Perhaps we are pushing too quickly to nerf this interesting new UI, and maybe should look at nerfs elsewhere.

 

[Revolutionist_8]

Don't forget that since it is a (arguably spamable) UI, it does benefit from any bonus from ideologies (4 from Freedom, 3 from Order, 3 from Autocracy)...

Oh, yes, you're right, that's a valid point!

Its an interesting point.

I do think China needs a nerf 100%, but are we nerfing the right thing? I mean from my perspective communitas likes to have lots of hills so I don't get a lot of UI, only a handful, often 1 or less per city. So is that really the dominant element of China's kit?

The answer honestly....is probably no. I actually think the food bonus we added recently might have been the sleeper buff to China, as it just lets them grow and grow and reduces unhappiness. Perhaps we are pushing too quickly to nerf this interesting new UI, and maybe should look at nerfs elsewhere.

Thanks for your feedback! Both you and PDan are veteran players whose opinion is valued valuably, so if both of you say that the civ needs a nerf then it indeed probably does, my argument only is, that removing the culture from the UI basically equals gutting the entire thing, it's a colossal nerf, and I just can't see it being justified.

I remember old China, when the UA had the culture, and how insanely broken it was (and fun ), so in my opinion the Siheyuan is an elegant way of addressing the issue (China has culture early on, but less and harder to get) while also synergizing splendidly with a high population kit.

RE: food: that's an interesting idea, and could be very well true! It's really hard to tell, but would make sense.

I hope others will come up with ideas as well, currently I have nothing but the "+1 (or +2) only during WLTED", but I'm not sure if that's enough, or a good direction even.

 

[pineappledan]

they gain the ability to exist from adjacency. adding an adjacency yield in addition to that would be redundant.

Could increase the on the first tech boost to 2, but I don't think it's a good call.

Right now, the UI gets 2 during WLTED, which is all the time, starting in classical.
To put that in perspective, the Chateau is the UI with the single most raw yields at 332, which matches the WLTED-boosted siheyuan at 8 yields, but they are worse yields.
The Chateau is unlocked later, and can't be built adjacent to each other.
Then the Siheyuan gains another +1 at civil service, in late medieval, for a total of 10 yields while Chateaus have to wait until Architecture, a full era later.
Relative to the next strongest base unique improvement, the current Siheyuan, is stronger, more spammable, earlier, and scales faster.

Granted, the chateau isn't an S tier UI, but China doesn't need the Siheyuan to be S-tier, or even B-tier. Their UA is extremely potent.

 

[pineappledan]

By that time pastures, camps, mines, etc. get so many yields from techs, buildings, policies that they easily match with these numbers.

If you're comparing the unique improvement to policy/pantheon/etc -boosted resource tiles then I think you're proving my point for me. Unique improvements are valuable because they compete against basic improvements on blank tiles. They don't usually have to compete with boosted resource tiles for to work them.

Other unique improvements are a better point of comparison.

 

[Recursive]

Proposal sponsored by Recursive.

 

[ilteroi]

can you also rotate the 3d model a bit? ideally it would even be randomized for each tile ... i think that would look better.

 

[Recursive]

can you also rotate the 3d model a bit? ideally it would even be randomized for each tile ... i think that would look better.

I don't know how to do the art and modeling work, I'm only sponsoring the yield reduction.

 

[pineappledan]

A Siheyuan should have the entrance on the south facing side and be oriented to match. Obviously that’s not always the case, but the ideal of a siheyuan should be oriented square with the compass. They’ve also been sized on the tiles specifically so they can make alleyed rows; tilting them would break up the alleys

 

[ilteroi]

oh you did that on purpose for feng shui? ok then i guess ... but for my eyes it doesn't look good if there are too many of them