[Vote] (4-34) Change Population Requirement Of National Wonders

[azum4roll]

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Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" if you'd be okay if this proposal was implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if this proposal wasn't implemented.

You can vote for both options, which is equivalent to saying "I'm fine either way", but adds to the required quorum of 10 votes in favor.

All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.

VP Congress: Session 4, Proposal 34
Current formula of population requirement:
Population required = P * (1 + N * C%) * OCC, where

P = NationalPopRequired​

N = number of cities​

C = NumCityCostMod​

OCC = 0.5 if One City Challenge, 1 otherwise​

Notably,
1. Scrivener's Office doesn't require more population with more cities.
2. America's extra UNW don't have population requirements, but Venice's have.
3. Population requirements are not consistent with their respective tech tier. Printing Press require 10 less population than Ironworks and East India Company, one tech tier earlier. Piazza San Marco requires 5 less population than Royal Library while both unlock at Writing.

Tall often has troubles building NWs when their techs are researched, while wide rarely has that problem. This can be made more balanced by reducing NationalPopRequired and increasing NumCityCostMod.

Proposal:
1. Remove population requirements from Unique National Wonders

You're incentivized to beeline the tech and rush build your unique building, but you often end up not having the required population to start it (very common with Assyria and England).​

2. Increase NumCityCostMod to 25 uniformly across all non-unique NW.
3. Generally lower NationalPopRequired across all non-unique NW, consistent with their respective tech tiers.

Building	NationalPopRequired
Heroic Epic	12
Scrivener's Office	12
School of Philosophy	15
National Monument	15
Circus Maximus	15
Oxford University	19
Grand Temple	19
East India Company	22
Ironworks	22
Printing Press	25
Hermitage	30
International Finance Center	40
Palace of Culture and Science	40
Foreign Bureau	40
Hall of Honor	40
National Intelligence Agency	50

 

[Stalker0]

Let me ask, if the goal is to make tall have a roughly equal time with NW than wide…why have a pop requirement at all?

Why not just drop the mechanic entirely? If someone wants to tech rush a NW as a part of their strat, is that really a problem?

 

[gwennog]

Why not just drop the mechanic entirely? If someone wants to tech rush a NW as a part of their strat, is that really a problem?

Not a bad idea but in this case it would be necessary to moderate the production cost which is 125 for all NW unless I am mistaken.

 

[Stalker0]

Not a bad idea but in this case it would be necessary to moderate the production cost which is 125 for all NW unless I am mistaken.

Why? Again the production cost isn’t really a “cost” NW now with wide, only tech. NW rarely take more than a few turns to build.

If we don’t think Tall should have an extra delay in NW compared to wide, then we should just remove the mechanic and be done with it. And if we do think it should…we don’t approve this proposal.

 

[der_weihnachtsmann]

I think dropping the requirements without adjusting the tech quickly leads to beelining them because they are the strongest buildings in the game. But they always (I think) come with the tech that gives the prequisite building. The pop requirement adjusted for city number disables beelining them. If it were just dropped the optimal play would probably be beelining the science NWs and probably Heroic and I guess that works better with Tradition.

I agree with the proposal that wide player should struggle more, especially becaue they get the most value of them.

I disagree that UNWs should not require pop because it makes them so much more powerful and throws of balance.

 

[Stalker0]

I think dropping the requirements without adjusting the tech quickly leads to beelining them because they are the strongest buildings in the game.

I'd counter that in that most NW when I play wide effectively have no pop requirement today. When I go for them, they are ready to build, its as simple as that. This is my point, effectively wide already plays like this to me, and its not considered OP. If we want Tall to play the same way, easiest way to do that is just remove the mechanic.

Beeling techs in this game already has a lot of trade off. Beeline Oxford University.....you are sacrificing a lot of military strength. Beeline Heroic Epic, giving up a lot of nice yield boosters and wonders in the north side of the tree, etc.

 

[der_weihnachtsmann]

Hasn't been like this in my experience. I guess maybe is that because wide needs a lot of production for settlers and units and the low prio of councils. Its still just my guess but i would probably beeline them, especially with tradition,because I would go for those techs anyways.

Following your logic it would buff tall play and do we want that?

Although this proposal would nerf wide too so nevermind

 

[alchx]

It is not at all difficult for high empires to send food caravans to their cities.
By turn 100, there are 3 technology caravans and 2 more can be taken from Wonders - Petra, Colossus (something else?). And even research Currency, which will give +1 caravan.

With 3 cities, it's easy to feed your population, causing explosive growth.

Wide empires require caravans with hammers to quickly rebuild many cities, otherwise they will fall into unhappines. On the contrary, you slow down population growth by sending citizens to forges, libraries or markets. I do not build Granaries with 5 cities until turn 100, so as not to get extra citizens by accident.

 

[azum4roll]

Why? Again the production cost isn’t really a “cost” NW now with wide, only tech. NW rarely take more than a few turns to build.

If we don’t think Tall should have an extra delay in NW compared to wide, then we should just remove the mechanic and be done with it. And if we do think it should…we don’t approve this proposal.

They should have an equal delay, optimally. The population requirement is basically a time gate. This should only punish science-heavy civs/builds who beeline specific NW.

UNWs are just UAs that unlock later. I think a tech gate works better than a time gate here, so the civ can choose to unlock their full UA earlier if desired.

Please do submit a counterproposal if you don't approve of this so the erroneous requirements can at least be corrected.

 

[Enginseer]

I disagree, only America's lack of a population requirement on its UNW was an oversight especially when Independence Hall has a requirement.

I also made a Production Cost table since NumCityCostMod does affect this

	0 (Capital Only)	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10
10% (Current)	125	137.5	150	162.5	175	187.5	200	212.5	225	237.5	250
25% (azum4roll)	125	156.25	187.5	218.75	250	281.25	312.5	343.75	375	406.25	437.5

I do dislike the table given in OP since it's not apparent what gets changed. So I made two tables for you to compare.

Spoiler ACTUAL azum4roll's proposal :

National Building with azum4roll's changes	Unused Base	1 (Capital)	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10
Heroic Epic	12	15	18	21	24	27	30	33	36	39	42
Scrivener's Office	12	15	18	21	24	27	30	33	36	39	42
School of Philosophy	15	18.75	22.5	26.25	30	33.75	37.5	41.25	45	48.75	52.5
National Monument	15	18.75	22.5	26.25	30	33.75	37.5	41.25	45	48.75	52.5
Circus Maximus	15	18.75	22.5	26.25	30	33.75	37.5	41.25	45	48.75	52.5
Oxford University	19	23.75	28.5	33.25	38	42.75	47.5	52.25	57	61.75	66.5
Grand Temple	19	23.75	28.5	33.25	38	42.75	47.5	52.25	57	61.75	66.5
East India Company	22	27.5	33	38.5	44	49.5	55	60.5	66	71.5	77
Ironworks	22	27.5	33	38.5	44	49.5	55	60.5	66	71.5	77
Printing Press	25	31.25	37.5	43.75	50	56.25	62.5	68.75	75	81.25	87.5
Hermitage	30	37.5	45	52.5	60	67.5	75	82.5	90	97.5	105
International Finance Center	40	50	60	70	80	90	100	110	120	130	140
Palace of Culture and Science	40	50	60	70	80	90	100	110	120	130	140
Foreign Bureau	40	50	60	70	80	90	100	110	120	130	140
Hall of Honor	40	50	60	70	80	90	100	110	120	130	140
National Intelligence Agency	50	62.5	75	87.5	100	112.5	125	137.5	150	162.5	175

Spoiler Current National Population Requirement :

Current National Building	Unused Base	1 (Capital)	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10
Heroic Epic	20	22	24	26	28	30	32	34	36	38	40
Scrivener's Office (Does not have scaling)	20	20	20	20	20	20	20	20	20	20	20
School of Philosophy	25	27.5	30	32.5	35	37.5	40	42.5	45	47.5	50
National Monument	25	27.5	30	32.5	35	37.5	40	42.5	45	47.5	50
Circus Maximus	25	27.5	30	32.5	35	37.5	40	42.5	45	47.5	50
Oxford University	35	38.5	42	45.5	49	52.5	56	59.5	63	66.5	70
Grand Temple	30	33	36	39	42	45	48	51	54	57	60
East India Company	40	44	48	52	56	60	64	68	72	76	80
Ironworks	40	44	48	52	56	60	64	68	72	76	80
Printing Press	30	33	36	39	42	45	48	51	54	57	60
Hermitage	45	49.5	54	58.5	63	67.5	72	76.5	81	85.5	90
International Finance Center	40	46	52	58	64	70	76	82	88	94	100
Palace of Culture and Science	60	66	72	78	84	90	96	102	108	114	120
Foreign Bureau	60	66	72	78	84	90	96	102	108	114	120
Hall of Honor	60	66	72	78	84	90	96	102	108	114	120
National Intelligence Agency	70	77	84	91	98	105	112	119	126	133	140

2. Increase NumCityCostMod to 25 uniformly across all non-unique NW.

Religion National Wonders currently are at 15 NumCityCostMod. They need to be looked at too!

 

[andersw]

I play wide and I get pop blocked on circus maximus, school of philosophy and iron works (which I tend to beeline) but these are the only ones.
How much depends, usually its a combo with low happiness that also make growth a slight problem.
I dont know if the AI is affected at all.

 

[azum4roll]

Religion National Wonders currently are at 15 NumCityCostMod. They need to be looked at too!

Do they? They don't have a population requirement, so it only affects their production cost, which is fine.

 

[azum4roll]

I sponsor this.

 

[Recursive]

Proposal sponsored by azum4roll.

 

[hokath]

This is an improvement to the status quo, but I agree that the pop requirements would be better off removed. I don't think it's worth having in the game, it just complicates matters.

 

[pineappledan]

I like where this is headed.

I won’t hazard any opinion about what those requirements should be, other than I think we should have some.

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.